1st American Volunteer Group

[Stearmen]

Yeah, I have that book, It's got quite a few discrepancies, I also have the sister book for Groups. It shows this tiger over shield design as the 23rd Fighter group. Also, Tex wore this patch as commander of the 23rd FG and he was commander of the 75th FS. I'm thinking some info got lost or confused along the way. Can't pinpoint them, but like I said, some info in the books is misleading.

Yes, the 23rd and the 14th are the most maddening of all the units in WWII. The late great R.T. Smith, spent most of the rest of is life trying to inform people that neither the 23rd or 14th were true Flying Tigers, only the 311 men and women that served with Chennault between, July 4, 1941 to July 4, 1942 were! Although, I just noticed, the modern 75th, call them selves Flying Tigers.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Johnny. have you got the blurry pictures available, I would love to nail down the actual emblem for the 74th as well. Just not comfortable thinking the 23rd FG serves this purpose as well. Just doesn't make common sense or official sense.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Found a picture showing a bunch of Squadron members wearing the CATF patch. It seems that the 2nd guy from the left sitting on the wing has the original version with tiger body extending out to the right and the rest of the guys are wearing just the China Sun part with Japanese flag. The modern 74th uses this as well but omitting the flag. I think I'm going with this as photographic proof, the only proof I have ever seen and somehow makes complete sense to me as of today. I have always offered the 23rd FG emblem as the 23rd FG, the 75th Tiger sharks, and the 76th, but never the 74th because I was never sure what it was. As of today, it'll be the portion of the CATF minus the body.

 

[Edward]

Don't worry Eddie, there's no way I'd bring anything bearing the nationalist flag into the PRC. I've lived long enough in the far east to know that this would be ill-advised. The most I would do would be to wear my unmarked A2.

If you make it to Beijing, do go to the Military Museum. It's a fascinating place - very much the, eh, Authorised history (but then to be fair I've yet to find a military museum anywhere in the world that doesn't somewhat idealise its own. Beijing's is pitched in a similar way to the tour I took of Arlington, really), but all the more fascinating for it. Some great exhibits from worldwide military displayed like a South Sea Island headhunter's prizes.

 

[Edward]

Yes, the 23rd and the 14th are the most maddening of all the units in WWII. The late great R.T. Smith, spent most of the rest of is life trying to inform people that neither the 23rd or 14th were true Flying Tigers, only the 311 men and women that served with Chennault between, July 4, 1941 to July 4, 1942 were! Although, I just noticed, the modern 75th, call them selves Flying Tigers.

Weren't the 23rd the group into which the original AVG Tigers were subsumed after the US officially joined the war against Japan? I'd always assumed that's why they gained a measure of popular ownership of the term. My own opinion tends to the view that it really best remains with the AVG, but I'm certainly not going to attempt to go down that road with one of Sonny B's boys over who owns the "Hell's Angels" moniker...

 

[SIGGY]

Yeah , I have always thought the 23rd was just that the 23rd , the "Group" book shows it as that and like mentioned "Tex" also wore it for the Group,I PM'd you about the images and once I get your reply I'll send em over to you ...................
Johnny
It makes me mad I can't recall where I originally saw them , Auuuuuuggggggghhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Weren't the 23rd the group into which the original AVG Tigers were subsumed after the US officially joined the war against Japan? I'd always assumed that's why they gained a measure of popular ownership of the term. My own opinion tends to the view that it really best remains with the AVG, but I'm certainly not going to attempt to go down that road with one of Sonny B's boys over who owns the "Hell's Angels" moniker...

Yes, the 23rd FG was part of the Air Corps and not the Flying Tigers. With a flying tiger being on the 14th AF emblem, and the 23rd FG emblem, I can see how it confused those who only dabble in the history. I also think that the USAF should not have labeled the modern 74th as Flying Tigers, maybe it was done after the 80's or something, but a good friend and customer of my AVG patches is Bob Schreibman, a lawyer that help achieve veteran status for AVG members in the mid 80's. So they were really kept at the back of the line until then and at that point it was pretty late in the game. Also, I think HA's use an apostrophe or vica versa, something like that separates the two names so they are not related to each other.

So getting back to the 74th emblem, I see the front part of the CATF emblem being worn in the period photo by several squadron members, and the modern 74th using the same without Japanese flag, so that's what I'm stickin to. Already got the pattern going for the breast patch and will post a photo once one is completed. Would still like to figure out the horse patch and find out what that's all about.

 

[SIGGY]

Hey a2jacketpatches, the emblem in question can be seen on the site listed below, it is still not a very "clear" image but you can at least get an idea of what I'm talking about,
cbi-history.com/part_ib.html
Once you get the page click on the 23rd Fighter Group- 1st Pur.Sqd/74th , it should go to the emblems, there's a grouping of them , the "Disney" version with Gorilla and next to it the "Pilot-rider on Horse" that I'm reffering to ...............................
Johnny

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Yeah Johnny, got your message on VLJ as well. Anxious for some other info to surface concerning this emblem. I'll post on USMF as well and see if we can stir up that old post.

 

[SIGGY]

Hope so a2, as this one has bugged me for a long while, and I'd really like to get it nailed down as to "what" unit and some better details/colors for it !!!
Johnny