Secret Pockets in Tailcoats?

[M Tatterscratch]

Gentlemen,

Still looking into the whys and wherefores of evening dress. Can any of you tell me when the "secret pockets" found in some tailcoats were prevalent, and when they began to vanish? Were they common features that became more scarce, or were they a here-and-there option?

Thanks and Regards,

T.

 

[reetpleat]

Gentlemen,

Still looking into the whys and wherefores of evening dress. Can any of you tell me when the "secret pockets" found in some tailcoats were prevalent, and when they began to vanish? Were they common features that became more scarce, or were they a here-and-there option?

Thanks and Regards,

T.

I have heard them called ministers pockets. But I suspect it is more of a drinking class thing. Probaby a personal choice by those who imbibe then and now.

 

[A.R. McVintage]

I have an 1870s gambler's frock coat, and it's got areas in the back for a derringer and a flask. I'd assume similar areas found on coats from the '20s would also have something do with liquor.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Tails and Tippling?

Gents,

These don't seem very well-suited for a flask, though. I had always heard that they were for gloves and such. All the way down in the bottom of a tailcoat, it seems that a flask would swing all over the place...

T.

 

[Mid-fogey]

Slightly...

...off topic, but when I was a cadet, our tail coats were unbound at the bottom and open. Tradition held it was so you could reach in and pull out the white linen for bandages.

In the golden era, men carried a potentially large number of accouterments. Lighters, cigar and cigarette cases, pocket pistols, handkerchiefs, et. al.

I think you are right that whatever goes in them would have to be light, handkerchiefs, gloves, etc.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

I think you are right that whatever goes in them would have to be light, handkerchiefs, gloves, etc.

Either that or you could load them with lead shot and, when confronted by social enemies, do a spinning ninja leap and take them all out with your whirling Tailchuks o' Death...

T.

 

[Micawber]

I have 19th Cent Frock coats with pockets let in the tails but carrying anything bulky in them would make walking decidedly uncomfortable. I have hunt coats with pockets in the same area.

 

[DavidVillaJr]

Those pockets in the tails, that's where the lead weights went, right?

To keep the tails from blowing about in the wind, or while dancing....


I just keep remembering when Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck or some other character was in tails and blown-up or some such, and the remains of the tailcoat always had that funny bent-up wire "stiffener" and a large "weight" blob on the bottom.


...and yes, ALL of my knowledge of vintage fashion comes from cartoons. lol


dv

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Those pockets in the tails, that's where the lead weights went, right?

That, I've never seen, but oh please, dear Lord, let it have been true. It conjures dreams of a new genre of action film which I'd actually go and see:

A smiling man in immaculate eveningwear bursts into a fully-orchestrated rendition of "Let's Face the Music and Dance", all the while gracefully hoofing his way through a horde of ninjas, throwing them into turmoil and dismay with the deadly arc of his weighted tailcoats...

Would-be Six-Button Samurai,

T.

 

[Edward]

From my relatively limited experience..... the pockets in tailcoats were more of a thirties thing (and possibly earler) than anything else - more recent tails don't have them. Hell, many tailcoats you encounter now aren't even lined lower than the waist, the tails just being double sided with the external material. (Bad show!) I have seen very many vintage tails which don't have them, as well as almost as many that do. I think it was one of those things that was a slightly upmarket feature. My understanding is that they were designed as a place to slip your gloves when these were removed to eat or whatever, as balled up down there they weren't noticeable - as opposed to ruining the line of your jacket or causing an unsightly bulge in your trouser pockets. They came to be often referred to as "miser's pockets", after the habit some folks were in of storing a hip flask down there for refilling one's glass at the opera (as opposed to buying drinks form the bar). It'd need to be a fairly dinky hip flask, though, to slip in and out of the average tail easily (ahem...from experience, again....). I stick to using them for my gloves these days.

 

[Chad Sanborn]

Magic in those tails!

The 'secret pockets' are called 'PROFONDES'.
When magicians always wore tuxedos when performing, these pockets were added to make things vanish and appear. Everything from gloves, birds, and rabbits, were literally thrown into them. Some things even appeard from them. Including rabbits, and champagne bottles.
When vests were worn, they to included secret pocket to hide things in. Things that could later be produced. Eggs, coins, cards, and small birds. This process was known as 'vesting'.

Nowadays, magicians rarely wear a tuxedo with tails. And their use has given way to more imaginative methods, suited for todays modern dress. But to see a master at work, using the profondes and vesting, is to see what real magic looks like.

Chad

 

[Midnight Blue]

Nowadays, magicians rarely wear a tuxedo with tails.

I might as well say it before someone else does: tuxedo jackets do not have tails.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

I might as well say it before someone else does: tuxedo jackets do not have tails.

That's why magicians rarely wear tuxedos with tails - They don't exist! (the tuxes w/ tails, that is, not the magicians - Magicians are a vanishing species)

Your avatar suggests either an interest in magic or exotic headgear, or both, Mr. S.... Not long ago I saw a tailcoat that belonged to Vincent Price up for auction, and it had "profondes" in the tails, plus several other unusual customised pockets in it. Who knows for what insidious purpose they were intended...

The pockets I've seen were probably not in place for random acts of magic, but for storing gloves and such, I believe. What I wonder is how prevalent the option was, how often it was included, and in what years. Mister Blue, you look like a man who would know. Any thoughts?

Profondely,

T.

 

[Chad Sanborn]

Tails coat, Tuxedo Jacket, they are all fancy jackets that not many people wear correctly anymore. The Vincent Price one on ebay is from his movie titled "The Magician". Its no wonder it has secret pockets.

I am sure that the use of tails pockets for regular use does/did exist. I was just pointing out some other, more out of the box uses for them and what others call them.

Sorry for stepping on your sartorial ground.

Chad

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Tails coat, Tuxedo Jacket, they are all fancy jackets that not many people wear correctly anymore. The Vincent Price one on ebay is from his movie titled "The Magician". Its no wonder it has secret pockets.

I am sure that the use of tails pockets for regular use does/did exist. I was just pointing out some other, more out of the box uses for them and what others call them.

Sorry for stepping on your sartorial ground.

Chad

Signor Sanborn,

Plenty of room here in the FL!

Lots of people can tell you what dinner jackets and tailcoats are, but I'll bet not a lot of people know what a profonde is. Thanks for the esoteric info add!

Presto,

T.

 

[Ugarte]

Tails coat, Tuxedo Jacket, they are all fancy jackets that not many people wear correctly anymore....

If at all. It seems from where I sit (i.e. "The Sticks") that tailcoats have been relegated to the domain of theatrical costume.

Case in point -- the only actual tailcoat ensembles I have ever seen live were on cast members of the Trans-Siberian Orchestra last month, and they were obviously worn as costumes.

Collars were open, cravats of any kind were nowhere in sight, the pants were down around their hips, and possibly because of this, the two waistcoats that made an appearance were worn too low and protruded from under the jackets. Also, the choice of footwear was primarily black cowboy boots. Not entirely a surprise since this concert was held in Lubbock, Texas. The women favored motorcycle boots under their black formals. And given the nature of the repertoire, these choices were spot on.

I wore a black double breasted suit that is just some cross-grain or satin away from a dinner suit with a white shirt and lightly patterned red tie. It would have been spectacular with my new Champ fedora, which I did not yet own.

At the autograph opportunity after the show I was complimented by one of the cast -- "I'm glad SOMEBODY dressed appropriately." At least I think it was a compliment.

Just wanted to say so.

Mark
.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Signor Ugarte,

There's a poster everywhere in Frankfurt for the Comedian Tenors - In it, every one of the troupe is wearing an ill-fitting tailcoat and a waistcoat that sticks out from under the front like a white pique balcony, all without the slightest hint of comedic irony or sartorial put-on. When Europe doesn't know, what hope is there for the poor old U.S. but us?

Your ensemble, on the other hand, sounds smashing. I'm sure the comment you received was a compliment. Keep fighting, old chap, keep fighting...

Regards,

T.

 

[duggap]

While your pockets may, or may not, be for coat tail weights, be assured that just such a thing really does exist. I have personally dug several of them on civil war sites. Some have dates, country of origin, or just numbers to indicate weight. A similar devise was also used on the bottom of curtains.[huh]

 

[M Tatterscratch]

While your pockets may, or may not, be for coat tail weights, be assured that just such a thing really does exist. I have personally dug several of them on civil war sites. Some have dates, country of origin, or just numbers to indicate weight. A similar devise was also used on the bottom of curtains.[huh]

Neato! What do they look like? Does anyone have a photograph of one?

T.

 

[Ugarte]

Signor Ugarte,

There's a poster everywhere in Frankfurt for the Comedian Tenors - In it, every one of the troupe is wearing an ill-fitting tailcoat and a waistcoat that sticks out from under the front like a white pique balcony, all without the slightest hint of comedic irony or sartorial put-on. When Europe doesn't know, what hope is there for the poor old U.S. but us?

Indeed.

And to think, there is a simple adjustment to fix all that. I'm wondering if they got the rise in the pants wrong.

Your ensemble, on the other hand, sounds smashing. I'm sure the comment you received was a compliment. Keep fighting, old chap, keep fighting...

Thank you sir. And you as well.

Mark

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