Schott x Shinki Jacket

[dannyk]

I wonder whether people buy one of these Shinki Schotts because of their quality or because its a limited run and they think they'll become collector pieces (which means they might fetch high prices on the second hand/resale market)

Also at play. But that’s one of those factors and why I’ve been saying heritage and brand name matter. And why Schotts market is huge compared to the other makers we know around here. Schott really is in a league of its own. In terms of cost, value, intent, marketing and market share, size of the factory, labor costs, overhead, advertising, that’s why it’s so hard to compare them to the other makers and their relative real value versus cost.

 

[dannyk]

So someone touched upon this earlier can’t remember who sorry! Ha. But to back them up a bit...I love TFL for exactly these convos. Highly intelligent and well behaved. We get to learn a lot, hear different view points, compare different markets/cultures. Sometimes things can get hot but never mean or personal. This is the stuff.

 

[Boyo]

I haven't gone back to read all the posts but.. in case you were worrying if this jacket would sell...all sizes but small are currently sold out.

 

[Marc mndt]

@Monitor maybe this is a stupid question and if it is, just ignore it...
But I wonder, what if I gave you $1400 right now and you had to spend it on a jacket. Would that be a no-brainer for you and would you spend it on this Schott (and partially pay for heritage etc etc) or would you buy a FL Shinki (which is much better built as compared to the Schott), or would you buy an Aero and pocket the remaining $500.

And why would you choose one or the other.

 

[Monitor]

@Monitor maybe this is a stupid question and if it is, just ignore it...
But I wonder, what if I gave you $1400 right now and you had to spend it on a jacket. Would that be a no-brainer for you and would you spend it on this Schott (and partially pay for heritage etc etc) or would you buy a FL Shinki (which is much better built as compared to the Schott), or would you buy an Aero and pocket the remaining $500.

And why would you choose one or the other.

Why'd it be a stupid question? I think it's a fun thing to think about.

For this particular style, it's a close call between FL Michigan and this Schott but I think I'd still go with Schott because I vastly prefer a jacket with shoulder gussets and I'm not a huge fan of snap-on sleeve cuffs. FL has more refined, classier details for sure, no argument there.
Having a custom FL made up to my specs & details, for the same price, would make me think.

For this amount of money and having a pick of any maker... Hm, DudeWTF's Freewheelers would be my first choice I guess. Lewis Leathers Corsair/Dominator, too.

You??

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Agreed, absolutely but another thing I'm going for is tryna make people realize that both our jackets are good. Yet people seem to automatically assume that by saying that their leather jacket is as good as Schott - or more accurately, isn't infinitely better than Schott - is somehow intended as an insult toward their jacket. Which I honestly find baffling.

I'm not saying your jacket sucks, I'm saying you should stop saying mine sucks without a single concrete shred of proof. Like, actual proof, not one mended by setting a sewing machine on a higher needle speed.

(just to clarify, I'm sayin' your jacket as a figure of speech, don't mean you personally, @trainspotter XD)

I'm not trying to say Schott sucks. I'm only saying that a Schott jacket is not made to the same standard that something like Freewheelers, The Real McCoys, or Field Leathers is. I am also saying this from experience and I do have proof for this. @Carlos840 already proved this with his comparison of the chest pocket stitching on a Field Leathers vs. Schott jacket and there are more examples than this available.

This does not mean that Schott is any less of a leather jacket in terms of just being a leather jacket. That's not what I am trying to say. Also, I have already said and will reiterate here that given Schott's current pricing, I think the asking price for this Shinki jacket is quite reasonable relatively. Do I personally think Schott is asking too much in general? Yes, I personally do. However, given that, this jacket is relatively a good deal from them especially for a limited edition jacket. Also, I want to point out that Vanson is the biggest reason I think Schott is too expensive. Their jackets cost less than Schott and look to be just as well made. If I were going to buy something more affordable, then I think I would go with someone like Vanson over Schott.

Again, I am not saying Schott is garbage and that Schott jackets suck. I am saying that they are not as well made and well finished as other jackets.

The example I always use with this is my dream car: a 1968 Plymouth Roadrunner. Objectively, it's actually not that great. There are better built cars, more reliable cars, faster cars, better handling cars, safer cars, etc. However, it's still my dream car and I don't care that there are so many better cars than it. Just because something objectively is not as good as something else does not mean it is worthless. Now, this is more extreme than Schott. The gap between a Nissan GTR and a Plymouth Roadrunner is far greater than the gap between a Freewheelers and Schott jacket. Another example would be my Conner's Sewing Factory jeans. They objectively are not made as nicely or as durably as other high end jeans and I don't care. They achieve their goal of being the most accurate reproduction Levi's and every characteristic of those jeans is part of that. I know there are better jeans out there and I have even owned them, but I still prefer my CSF jeans and that's OK. I think Schott's success shows that they are achieving their goal of making solid leather jackets in many iconic designs that people like to buy. Their goal is just different than that of Freewheelers or RMC and I think the goals/desires in terms of purchasing is different for the people purchasing each jacket in many cases.

Reading "Ametora" by W. David Marx would definitely help explain the Japanese perspective on making repro garments. Equating a Schott jacket to a Freewheelers jacket isn't an insult to me. The differences are so obvious to me that I can't be insulted by that. The reason why myself and others react to such statements is because we see so clearly in our minds that a Schott jacket is simply not the equal of a Freewheelers jacket in many ways. It is equally a leather jacket, but it is not equally well stitched, equally well skived, equally well patterned, and equally not made of the same quality of materials (this goes beyond just leather). You can disagree about this, but having handled many of both brands, I do perceive a very noticeable difference between the jackets and it is difficult for me to understand how others do not see that difference when it is so clear to me.

I appreciate your perspective of course and I would love to just meet up somewhere as a group with a Freewheelers, Field Leathers, Schott, Aero, etc jacket each and just compare them all. It would not only be fun, but I would love to see the look on normal peoples' faces as they walked past us...

 

[Marc mndt]

Why'd it be a stupid question? I think it's a fun thing to think about.

For this particular style, it's a close call between FL Michigan and this Schott but I think I'd still go with Schott because I vastly prefer a jacket with shoulder gussets and I'm not a huge fan of snap-on sleeve cuffs. FL has more refined, classier details for sure, no argument there.
Having a custom FL made up to my specs & details, for the same price, would make me think.

For this amount of money and having a pick of any maker... Hm, DudeWTF's Freewheelers would be my first choice I guess. Lewis Leathers Corsair/Dominator, too.

You??

I don't think $1400 would buy you a freewheelers. And even if it would, it wouldn't work for me because of sizing. Same holds for Schott. I'd need to size up for my chest which would result in a huge overhang of the bottom hem.
I've owned two schott jackets which I both sold not long after I got them. The build quality was not bad at all, but it wasn't good either. I appreciate perfection and I don't mind paying for it. Therefore no more Schott for me.

I really enjoy the process of doing a custom / bespoke build and having personal interaction with the maker to discuss design ideas. Combined with the level of perfection Field Leathers offers, my choice would obviously be Field Leathers.

 

[AeroFan_07]

Well I will sure say this: If Schott's marketing department is not reading this thread - they are missing out on some very valuable feedback, from customers and prospective customer's both.

It is very difficult to get good, solid, useful feedback on products. One would think the Internet would have helped this out - and certainly here in this forum it has as this thread has shown. What often occurs is "this jacket sucks" or "the stiching is subpar" without meaningful data, details, and possible comparisons to referance. Thanks for being specific and not just "blanket."

I also like that we have kept it respectiful to each other, even when we disagree. Thier quick sell-out means this may have been a "teaser" model, perhaps a market test even - for a possible future broader offering with the Shinki leather? Who knows, just a thought...

 

[Edward]

It's an interesting question, especially as, with the pound in the toilet these last four years, USD1400 is now worth about 160% or more what it was in 2010 when I bought my first Aero. So, at today's exchange rate, that's GBP1041..... maybe an Aero Widlerness (I really like that one, and now's a good time of year for it) and a Shackleton... Or I might just scratch that Lewis Lightning itch.... I've really gotten into the look of the latter in the last year or two, but I'd want tog order it up in the original 1958 spec, i.e. without the forearm zip pocket. I know that became something of a Lewis trademark after they introduced it first on the Twin Track Bronx in 66 and then rolled it out across the range, but it always made the sleeve look a bit cluttered to me. There are a couple of Wested jackets like the Das Boot / Doctor Who one that are a style I would like to experiment with at that lower price band that could end up in the mix there too.

I don't know... considering I can get Johnson leather for less or Thedi in a similar price range... I wouldn't bother with Schott if I were in the US. Fact is, I didn't when I went to their flagship store in NYC.

If ever I get to SF, I would definitely like to check out Johnson. If my D-pocket is anything typical of them, I wouldn't say no to something new. A P-type from Johnson would be interesting. I rather liked the one Depp wore in Crybaby; black leather, shiny brass hardware, no exterior breast pocket, no coin pocket. Be interesting to see a Johnson take on that.

That doesn't quite stand because, while their marketing department has occasionally resorted to pure bs, the fact that...
1. Schott has been around for a hundred years
2. Schott has been among the pioneer makers of the motorcycle jacket as we know it
...remains.
It could not have been an easy task to survive in an ever-changing world of fashion but the fact that Schott prevailed all these years while delivering a jacket that became what is possibly the most iconic piece of men's outerwear, worn by everyone and anyone, has to count for something, regardless on how we feel about branding.

We could say the same of Belstaff, though - and Barbour. For me it's just not relevant. I get that some folks do find that important, of course - just not a selling point for me. Clearly they're doing something right in business terms to last that long, but...

Fair enough on all points of comparison but the thing is, it's not really all too fair be comparing an Aero's MC jacket to a regular, OTR Schott 618 (even though I believe the 618 holds its own just fine). It is a much cheaper, mass produced jacket, especially was back in the days - heck, just some 8 years ago, 618 was less than 1/2 price of an Aero.

Yeah, and now it's the same price - or sometimes more - here in the UK ! Which invites the direct comparison even more...

But what I am saying that you should be comparing Aero's MC jacket to Schott's 613UST or Horween P613S - or simply that Japanese 618 in Horween. They're still substantially different jackets - as you stated, Aero's MC jacket fits much closer to the early cross-zips, with the V-shaped cut an' all, but in terms of quality & material, it all boils down to personal subjective preference.

I'd like tog compare some of those. TBH, they don't excite me on screen, but I'm open to them being very different in person. Not convinced I'd buy one, but It'd be nice to see one.

Agreed, absolutely but another thing I'm going for is tryna make people realize that both our jackets are good. Yet people seem to automatically assume that by saying that their leather jacket is as good as Schott - or more accurately, isn't infinitely better than Schott - is somehow intended as an insult toward their jacket. Which I honestly find baffling.

I'm not saying your jacket sucks, I'm saying you should stop saying mine sucks without a single concrete shred of proof. Like, actual proof, not one mended by setting a sewing machine on a higher needle speed.

(just to clarify, I'm sayin' your jacket as a figure of speech, don't mean you personally, @trainspotter XD)

I get you. I've nothing against Schott (their marketing aside) - there's just an awful lot out there I prefer, all done and said. But we're all bloody lucky and privileged to have the access to the range of stuff we do and to even thing about being able to afford any of it..... That is something I need to rmeind myself of at times.

Very interesting discussion.

Regarding non-innovative Japanese makers-
As is well known the Japanese have had a big love for Americana, well made US-clothes from the "good old times", when there was still high level craftsmanship with traditionally produced raw materials, stuff mostly from the 40s to 60s.
This is in contrast to the mostly mass-produced low price stuff, often put together overseas with cheap raw materials from the 80s on.

Much of the Japanese stuff is just way beyond what I'd be prepared to pay on a jacket BUT that said I still like to see what they do. For me, the notion of "originality" is vastly overrated - but then I don't want "innovative". I have literally almost nil interest in fashion or clothing styles post about 1962, and given the time and budget I'd almost never wear anything of a later design. My favourite pen to date is a Wing Sung 601 - basically a somewhat improved vacuumatic Parker 51 that I can buy affordably today. There probably are more innovative pens that might be considered easier or "better" writers, but that ain't my bag - nor their market...

I wonder whether people buy one of these Shinki Schotts because of their quality or because its a limited run and they think they'll become collector pieces (which means they might fetch high prices on the second hand/resale market)

Quite possibly. I've known (and taught) people who bought designer accessories and bits as investments - and who'd sometimes sell them off a year or two later for more than they paid.

Also at play. But that’s one of those factors and why I’ve been saying heritage and brand name matter. And why Schotts market is huge compared to the other makers we know around here. Schott really is in a league of its own. In terms of cost, value, intent, marketing and market share, size of the factory, labor costs, overhead, advertising, that’s why it’s so hard to compare them to the other makers and their relative real value versus cost.

They're certainly a very different business model to most of the brands we discuss round here... probably closer to Levi's than Aero or ELC, or RMC or W.H.Y..

I haven't gone back to read all the posts but.. in case you were worrying if this jacket would sell...all sizes but small are currently sold out.

Inevitable.... a brand that big and only fifty of them? Be like Ford making "only fifty" of a special edition Mustang as distinct from Morgan making 50 electric blue three-wheelers...

 

[Marc mndt]

Thier quick sell-out means this may have been a "teaser" model, perhaps a market test even - for a possible future broader offering with the Shinki leather? Who knows, just a thought...

I don't think Shinki is able to produce the volumes needed to do a larger run. I think 50 jackets is a lot already.

 

[Monitor]

@dudewuttheheck Agreed on most points though I never mentioned Freewheelers in a context of comparison with Schott. FW's got much more elaborate design and even if Schott's machining and material is to be on the exact same level, Freewheelers is a different league. Their styles are primarily aesthetical, taking only cues from vtg designs while raising the product to a new level, while Schott never strays away from their utilitarian aspect of their jackets, so a direct comparison would be moot - It'd be same as comparing Vanson to I dunno, Yohji Yamamoto.

While this simply isn't Schott's thing, I don't believe they're not capable of such a feat. After all, all it takes is a very skilled machinist and a lot more time than what I imagine Schott will usually invest in a production of a single jacket. I'd love to see them go for something ultimate, it'd be interesting how it would turn out.

Freewheelers is borderline high fashion which I mean as a compliment.

But RMC, for instance, they don't bring anything new to the table. Ever. J-24 is stitch perfect copy of an old Buco, which, back in the days has always been on the level of... Well, Schott. Wasn't anything particularly special about it (other than the neat design) so I don't see what'd make them so uniquely special nowadays if compared to a premium Schott, as they literally do the same thing in same style with same material. Ditto for Fine Creek.

 

[AeroFan_07]

I don't think Shinki is able to produce the volumes needed to do a larger run. I think 50 jackets is a lot already.

This is a very good point Marc - even Horween has to be stretched to near limit these days the sheer number of boot, belt, wallet, purse, football, baseball glove and jacket manufacturers, to only name a few, that are using thier products. Products that, by nature of thier processes and procedures, take months to produce, not just days. I suspect it's rather similar in Japan as well.

Then from dudewhattheheck: I appreciate your perspective of course and I would love to just meet up somewhere as a group with a Freewheelers, Field Leathers, Schott, Aero, etc jacket each and just compare them all. It would not only be fun, but I would love to see the look on normal peoples' faces as they walked past us...

This has to be one of the best statements I've ever seen on FL! We absolutely need to do something like this once this whole Covid-mess is over. Just seeing people reactions to "normal", "sane", "thougthful" people handling so many different types of leather jackets would be worth the price of admission.

 

[red devil]

I appreciate your perspective of course and I would love to just meet up somewhere as a group with a Freewheelers, Field Leathers, Schott, Aero, etc jacket each and just compare them all. It would not only be fun, but I would love to see the look on normal peoples' faces as they walked past us...

This has to be one of the best statements I've ever seen on FL! We absolutely need to do something like this once this whole Covid-mess is over. Just seeing people reactions to "normal", "sane", "thougthful" people handling so many different types of leather jackets would be worth the price of admission.

We've done that in London twice already

There were some serious jackets both times!

 

[ton312]

I don’t get the feeling that Schott much cares about what a bunch of “basement bombardiers” and “stitch count queens” think about their jackets. The fact that the jacket sold out as quickly as it did says it all. TBH I’m a bit surprised by it myself but the truth is, of all the brands patronized here, few if any hold their value as well as Schott. They have a mystique that brings the otherwise uninitiated to the table with a fistful of cash.
I also would not be the least bit surprised to see these jackets on eBay with an extra 30%-50% tacked on ala “sold out, limited edition” in the coming weeks and months.

 

[Hebgen]

I posted on page 2 that I bought one. I've kept up on this whole thread so far and can appreciate all the tiny details everyone is talking about. But I have a Schott P653 Sunset Delivery jacket in Burgundy Horween CXL (I think I said P663 earlier) and I've since gone and grabbed it out of the closet and inspected some seams and stitching, checked out the pockets and the liner, and eyeballed the all the details I can. I guess I don't have the same "eye" for this. I think it looks pretty nicely done up with no obvious mistakes or bad stitching. The stitching is straight and clean etc. I did notice the pockets are not so square as they could be. But I put my hands in them a LOT and use them for gloves, wallets, phone etc, and this jacket gets routine wear. The whole jacket has rolls and creases and patina, and even a few little scuffs etc. I'm nearly certain that any perfectly sewn square pocket eventually is not so perfect after a few years of actually wearing the jacket as I have done with my P653 and that's what I intend to do with the new one too. Wear it.

I also want to chime in why I bought it. When I saw the picture I thought "Awesome!" it's just what I want!

The bonus is I know the jacket brand and the brand of leather used in the jacket

 

[Blackadder]

In quality of what?

RMC is slightly better made than anything premium by Schott, if even as much as with the exact same material used by the both makers, what aspect of quality are we talking about?

High end Schott is really well made. Like, seriously well. The 60's Perfecto repro that everyone on IG has been wearing is a jacket that can compete with anything out there, in terms of construction, stitching, etc.

On top of that, compared to Schott, RMC is a no name company that hasn't brought out a single original thing since the day they dug out that first Buco. Not counting jail clothes, Off-white knock-off hoodies, 80's shiny tracksuits & that disgusting $3200 rabbit fur coat.

FW is cool for having original and beautiful styles, unique to them. Like Schott does. At least until everyone starts ripping them off. Like what's everyone doing to Schott.

FC had an insanely original idea of making a Schott 618 knock-off in a leather that Schott wasn't using but now that Schott got a hold of that leather, as fool-proof of an idea as that might've seem to FC at a time, it sort of flew out the window now so... Yeah. Well, they had a good run, at least.

King is naked.

I think you kind of missed the point of why Japanese makers copied those designs. They did them for the local market where the Western fit does not actually fit any, oh well most of the locals (the owner of the Vanson dealer in Japan is a really big dude that wears custom Langlitz cos nothing fits him). These are small scale companies which can survive on the local market alone but if Westerners want them, then they don't mind the extra business. I think that is quite evident from the range of sizes they offer.
BTW, the costs are kind of reversed in Japan where CXL would cost more than shiniki. That a Schott HH would cost more than a FCL.
So yes, from your viewpoint, those Japanese jackets are overpriced, meaningless copies but not so for the average Japanese. Also those "hype" we are talking about is not created by Japanese on internet and forums.

 

[Monitor]

I also want to chime in why I bought it. When I saw the picture I thought "Awesome!" it's just what I want!

That's what it's all about. No amount of reasoning that concentrating on something else is wiser, can replace the initial emotion of seeing something we deeply like. I've often thought the same about many Schott jackets and very rarely about jackets by some other makers perceived as vastly superior. GoodWear, for instance. Even his rare forays outside of the war stuff, into styles I would find more interesting has left me feeling meh, in both silhouette & leather.

Schott often just makes something that I'll say in my inside voice "That's it!". Like the red Perfecto. There's absolutely NOTHING anyone can do on a black jacket to make it even visible next to a red cross zip, whether you hate it or like it but all this talk of stitching, details, etc. falls and fails. Schott just effortlessly did it.

Primarily, I want to be deceived into thinking the jacket is making me look good. Schott does that well to me.

 

[Mich486]

But RMC, for instance, they don't bring anything new to the table. Ever. J-24 is stitch perfect copy of an old Buco, which, back in the days has always been on the level of... Well, Schott. Wasn't anything particularly special about it (other than the neat design) so I don't see what'd make them so uniquely special nowadays if compared to a premium Schott, as they literally do the same thing in same style with same material. Ditto for Fine Creek.

Mmm... I don’t know man, if I were given a choice it’ll be a though one but I know the one of the three I would pass on:

 

[Blackadder]

Take a look at all those special editions that Schott make for the Japanese market, the slimmer and shorter cut, the different leather and the prices but have Addict Clothes, FW or RM ever made any Western cut? FCL may go for collaboration with Western dealers in the future. Iron Heart did design some but IH doesn't actually make the leather jacket themselves.
It is nice to have more business some overseas orders perhaps but some of these makers are not counting on them much like those American auto makers who rarely make a right steering wheel model.

 

[Monitor]

Mmm... I don’t know man, if I were given a choice it’ll be a though one but I know the one of the three I would pass on: View attachment 281560 View attachment 281561 View attachment 281562

That's a crappy choice for a model. Schott, of course, fits the best, as proven by mr. president himself.