Edward
Bartender
- Messages
- 25,081
- Location
- London, UK
Your first part is kind of my point I was trying to make up above. I think a lot of this depends on where you live. My conversion rate US to UK currency is brutal. Aeros are just as expensive as Schott give or take and after taxes and shipping almost always more expensive. The European Schotts are also usually even more
Inferior than the US made. Which for you guys are more expensive. Then there’s the overhead costs of labor for made in US, and their huge business compared to any small lines. The quality, design, otr, bespoke, customizations are all a separate matter. I simply mean apples to apples comparisons of base prices for base jackets. Everything after that is up for discussion to me. Everything after that is certainly debatable.
It'll neve happen for obvious reasons, but I'd love to see a cost breakdown for each of these labels. For the basic production-run Schotts - the 118s, 618s and such - I'd be surprised if the total production cost per unit, given the quantities in production, will be as high as a company producing smaller runs or even on a to-order basis.
Currency differences are definitely part of what has pushed up the price of a Schott in the UK, though that alone wouldn't account for quite the rise I've seen (more than doubled and then some in the last decade). Definitely, though, I'd expect to pay more than an Asian-made jacket once US labour comes into play. That is one reason I like so-called 'first world' manufacture;
But that's what I'm saying - It's the other way around and it always has been; Why would you pay Schott money for an Aero. If Schott is using the exact same material, same building technique AND you get their own proprietary design & style (arguable, I know, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say that Schott does hold moral high ground in calling the Perfecto their own style) and not a knock-off, what exactly makes Aero's cross-zip more valuable?
That's quite a leap of 'for the sake of discussion' - part of the calculation for me is very much that I *don't* value the "heritage" nature of the brand, given that 99% of it is completely fabricated by Schott's marketing department! I mean - "we invented the motorcycle jacket" and all the rest... (I'm not just down on Schott that way; if I wasn't over Les Paul style guitars already, there'd be a long list of those I'd look at before even considering a Gibson.... I'm just not big on "we did it first" as a reason to pay more, or to select it over something else. Subjective - a lot of folks would disagree, I know, which is fine for them. I certainly don't want to suggest my subjective choices are for anyone else. There are companies where my decision to buy or not are based on intangibles - there's several companies across a whole host of markets that I would never give money to even if they were the only option for something I like because of ethical concerns or company politics or whatever.
If all things were equal, then it really would be down to solely personal preference on branding and such... perhaps even saving on postage or import tax! For me though, they simply aren't. I've got both an Aero and a Schott 618 in the same style. Ironically I'm selling the Aero, because the size I bought (used) some years ago doesn't work on my waist, but side by side for me it's a vastly nice jacket than the Schott. I prefer the leather on the Aero (both steer), just has a nicer hand and feel to me - purely subjective, I'm sure, but still fairly like for like (the Aero is not Horween CXL steerhide). I also prefer the cut on the Aero (I just need a different size) as much closer to the late 40s/ early 50s Durable cut that I like than the Schott. The Schott is a good pattern while I'm carrying a bit more weight - very boxy, straight up and down. Works with a different body shape for now. WE'll see how I go when I need to belt it in more - they can creat an odd 'skirting' effect if pulled to the tighter end of the belt. Side by side, the Aero looks much classier to me - subjective, again. There are a few other differences that I prefer in the Aero as well - options such as an inner pocket I'd trust - there's no way I'd ever trust anything to the inner pocket in my 618, too low down and no fastening. I don't ever use handwarmers as such, but I like to stick gloves and so on in them at times; the Schott, weirdly, is a real pig on me to actually get at those pockets while I'm wearing it. The other big advantage on Aero is choice of lining (I'm not a big fan of the quilted liner in my Schott), and hardware - and at that, plain hardware. If I was to lose the Schott, I might consider replacing it with a used 118 if they still have the plain hardware. It's not a dealbreaker as such on my Schott, but I would every time rather it had plain snaps over the branded ones. (Bit like the Lewis Leather logo patch - not in itself a reason I'd turn it down, but would look so much better without). Those sort of factual things aside, I just honestly find the Aero a much nicer jacket that sells at a price I'm currently prepare to pay - the Schott isn't. It's all subjective. I like the Schott an I'll keep wearing it (though it gets less wear than my Johnson D-pocket, which is a nicer jacket too), but while I plan eventually to buy a new Aero, if the Schott got lost or stolen, it's not one I'd feel an urgency to replace.
If Schott was your company and has been for over a 100 years and if you've made it a world famous brand, would you honestly believe that your jacket isn't worth as much as what other, relatively small-time makers that are directly copying what you have created, are asking for their reproductions? Of your jacket?
I don't consider them to have a legitimate claim on the jacket as "theirs" - Levi's in my eyes, would have more credibility in claiming the five-pocket jean "belongs" to them. I'd still do a spit take at the idea that that alone made them worth more, though. I'm sure Schott think differently - subjective, again - and clearly they have enough folks agree with them to keep succeeding in business so good luck to them. I certainly don't begrudge them their success, evne if some of their marketing rubs me up the wrong way.
In reality, Aero has an edge in being "bespoke", so to say. Which, at BEST, should make their jacket compete price-wise with Schott in Horween but that's about it.
Well, that's where I disagree. For me, even aside from Aero's M2M / M2O model and the additional options that brings, the SChott just isn't a jacket I'd be prepare to spend GBP eight or nine hundred on (which is what they are being priced at here in London). Half that, maybe. But it keeps coming back to perceived value in the market, all done and said. To me, the Schott just isn't worth that. Clearly, though, as I say plenty enough people disagree that they can stay in business without, I'm cure, crying too much over the lost sales to me personally.
There is a difference between bespoke (pattern changes=what FL does) and custom (adding sleeve- or body length or a few other minor deviations on the basic pattern = what Aero does)
Yes, Field do bespoke, Aero do made to order with a touch of tweaking to made to measure from a standard pattern. Different business models - sadly all too often confused on the UK market now since a shameful court decision against the Savile Row association to allow the M2M online suit retailers King & Allen to get away with claiming to be bespoke.
You’re missing the point. It’s sucks and it’s lame but do companies charge more for their name? For their history? For what they represent? The answer is unequivocally yes. Does it suck in actuality and hold no water? Yes absolutely. But since it’s real and companies do it, Schott has the right to do it. They should to compete with the market. I don’t think we need to debate the fact it’s asinine and companies change over time and their name can mean more or less. But it’s certainly a legit thing.
It's all the power of branding - consumer capitalism. Reminds me of the middle eighties - Gibson, pre-Slash, couldn't give Les Pauls away back then, hopelessly out of fashion. Slash helped (even if, ironically, his original AFD Les Paul was actually a luthier-made counterfeit. A very good one, yes, a great guitar, but no more a legit Gibson than the cheapest Chinese fake), but the real turning point was when Gibson effectively doubled the price and began to sell the guitars as a luxury, lifestyle brand as much as practical instruments. After that they couldn't get 'em out fast enough. It's a basic facet of the "free market" - perceived value. As long as enough people to make it profitable perceive a value in these things, they can keep charging the money. Value - like beauty - will always be in the eye of the beholder.