Schott x Shinki Jacket

[red devil]

@Carlos840 absolutely agreed, it is an individual opinion & I respect yours & @dudewuttheheck's choice

For me, yes I will appreciate the perfect rectangle & the impeccable stitching, especially at $1k+, but there a few important factors such as maturity of the pattern and fit in which I believe legacy plays a tangible role. That is why I prefer Aero's & Schott's patterns over someone say Field leathers or even SB. I feel the good old patterns(in my price bracket) have been perfected by Aero & Schott, & that is much more important to me than a stitch by stitch evaluation. Ofcourse stitching cannot be outright 3/10, I will send the jacket back, as I believe some forum members have with Aero, once in while

RMC & other Japanese makers besides Himel Bros operate in a completely different price band, & expectations will surely be on another level if one is paying double or sometimes triple the cost of an Aero or Schott

Maybe it is me scrutinising your words too much, but when you say patterns, do you mean the general model of the jackets or the way they are patterned in terms of fit, range of motion, etc...?

 

[trainspotter]

I mean general model of the jacket. TBH, I have tried/owned only Aero's CR/BR based patterns and Schott's 3-4 models like P665 Asset, P663 Delivery, Restoration Hardware CR & Context 113CXL. So my experience is quite limited. The fit of all jackets I have owned from these brands has been comfortable.

 

[Carlos840]

Maybe it is me scrutinising your words too much, but when you say patterns, do you mean the general model of the jackets or the way they are patterned in terms of fit, range of motion, etc...?

When i say "patterns" i mean the shape of the pieces of cardboard used to cut the pieces of leather that will be used to build the jacket.
I mean the general shape of the jacket, the curvature/rotation of the sleeves compared to the shoulder, the shape of the neckhole, the way the shoulders rest on the body, how a jacket interracts with a human body.

I think other people sometimes use "patterns" as way to describe a combination of different visual cues/ design styles. To me "patterns" is about the inner working of the jacket, not what it looks like on the outside.

You could use the same pattern but dress it differently to come up with different designs/models that are all based on the same pattern.

 

[Edward]

I've had several Schott jackets over the years. There seems to be some Schott infatuation here with historic favoritism ....but I just don't put them in the same category as the top tier leather jackets of the last few decades. Wonky stitching, loose liner thread, sometimes nice leather ( such as a Shinki run ) but often not so much, plus mainly off the rack sizing is my evaluation. They have gotten better with their latest productions but still a notch under par from my perspective.

Way I look at it, Schott aren't bad as such, but unlike the makers I favour, they don't offer anything particularly new at this point (other than the intangible "originality", which is even in itself debatable). Given there are many jacket in those styles on the market at markedly cheaper prices, with Schott you end up paying a lot for a] US manufacture and b] the brand. Their QC - although not as high as some makers, granted - is much more consistent than many makers of budget Schott styles. I have, years before I got seriously into this "hobby", owned a few and handled many more bike jackets like this - British from the 60s onwards, some American, and many from South Asia as British manufacturing died out and was replaced. Big thing about the cheaper stuff was that you could sometimes find a jacket every bit as good as a better Schott for very significantly less, but you might have to scour over three or four first, while the Schott would be fairly standard across the board. (For the record, some of the absolute worst extremes of variability I've ever seen were 70s era Lewises, and they were never cheap!)

I used to find Schott fairly priced back when they were maybe £300 and an Aero equivalent was £550; that was pretty fair a difference for my experience in relative quality. While inflation has affected both since, at least here in the UK now anywhere I can see selling new Schott Perfectos is charging Aero money, which is crazy to me - but then we're really not Schott's target market.

@Carlos840 - I don't think it's at all fair to compare Schott to Field, given they're such very, very different animals. We can't possibly expect the level of attention given a fully bespoke jacket made one at a time on individual patterns to be there in something mass-produced. Schott certainly - the odd special aside, perhaps, but even then... - are not aiming at our niche market. They're a mainstream fashion brand concerned with high unit sales. It's like comparing Alpha to Toys McCoy for MA1s.

That said....Schott do kinda invite the comparison with the money they now charge for these things. Used to be the average Schott 618 or 118 was about £300 in the UK. Now I see them being sold at eight or nine hundred, with nil change - no "improved" hide, hardware, difference in fit, made to measure - nada. Presumably though they must still be getting the money in from the fashion / mainstream market or they wouldn't still be in business... #capitalism.

IMO the the best thing about Shinki is that most makers who use it will try very hard to make the most of it and produce great jackets.
To me seeing "Shinki leather" means "it will most likely be super well made by an OCD maker", not necessarilly "the leather will be amazing".

I think that's a very perceptive comment. It's nice enough, but personally I don't like it more that Vicenza or Horween's CXL FQHH. Certainly wouldn't turn a jacket I liked down over it, though I've never been motivated to go out and buy one.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Not trying to be a douche, but IMO Aero and Schott are two of the worst brands on the market as far as "pattern and fit", they both have had problems that have been visible for years and neither has done anythign to make it better.
I would put them on the same level stitching wise.

Agreed. My experience with my own Aero and other Aeros I have tried on as well as the Schott jackets I've tried on have pushed me toward thinking differently about patterns than I did previously. I appreciate now just how well makers such as RMC, Himel, and especially Freewheelers do them. I'll throw Field Leathers in there too from what I have seen. I may actually be trying Field Leathers myself soon and I'll be able to say more. However, given my experience you're not just paying for leather, materials, labor, attention to detail, etc with someone like FW, you're also paying for how bloody brilliant the patterns and fits are even in a stock jacket.

Also, as Carlos points out, the difference in construction between Schott vs. Fw, RMC, and Field Leathers is indeed night and day. If others don't care, that's perfectly fine, but its not okay in my opinion to blast FW and rmc for their pricing when there is an undeniable difference in quality.

In fact I do analyze all of my clothing to that same degree. My other jackets, my jeans, and definitely with my boots as well all get the same sort of treatment. I care about it the most with my leather jackets and boots because those should all last the length of my lifetime, but I do still look at my fabric garments that way too.

I do personally love Shinki and prefer it to any other leather, but I also love Badalassi so im not an Shinki exclusive person. However, I would take a well made jacket in something like Vicenza over a poorly made jacket in Shinki. My Diamond Dave jacket was made of Shinki and helped me love the leather, but I still sold the jacket.

 

[dannyk]

I’m no Schott fanboy. I still own one. But just one. And I get it. I guess to me the reason I don’t get the hate is because they are still cheaper than almost any other maker. Maybe it’s different depending on where you live. But being an American most Schotts are still much more affordable to me than even Aero. After taxes and shipping most Aeros are much more expensive or the same price. Any Japanese brand is automatically out of my price range. They charge more than most Schotts base price then after shipping and taxes forget it. So I appreciate all the things other brands do better than them. I really do, but they are much more expensive and as such, should be better quality. Schott prices certainly have gone up, but then again so has the entire market. We’re at a very high point in general in this market right now. So to me it’s not defending Schott cause I love them...like I said I only have one jacket of theirs right now. But it’s just trying to be fair. To me most of their jackets still cost less then the rest and as such, will have flaws in my mind that those that cost 2,000 should not. Doesn’t mean I agree they should cost 1,000 or 1,4000 I don’t think any of these things should be on that level. Also Schott does have heritage, name, made in America and a Union factory. They cost more because of all those factors. A Japanese brand can show up tomorrow and charge 2,000 and no one questions it. Might absolutely be worth it, most of them are. I’m just saying whatever anyone says about Schott they have a made in America line that costs much more in labor. That alone will raise costs. What are you paying for in Japan for example? Higher quality usually yes absolutely, but it’s usually just a single guy or a crew of like 10. They don’t have the overhead Schott has. So I don’t want anyone misconstruing where I stand. That’s where I’m at. And as others have said about Shinki and I already have at least I don’t feel so all alone in thinking it’s just different haha. Amazing and fantastic sure but lots of top tier Leathers are. I hope to own one someday and be fair about it though.

 

[Tom71]

From what I can see from my end, all sizes "L" and above are already gone...

 

[Monitor]

Way I look at it, Schott aren't bad as such, but unlike the makers I favour, they don't offer anything particularly new at this point (other than the intangible "originality", which is even in itself debatable). Given there are many jacket in those styles on the market at markedly cheaper prices, with Schott you end up paying a lot for a] US manufacture and b] the brand. Their QC - although not as high as some makers, granted - is much more consistent than many makers of budget Schott styles. I have, years before I got seriously into this "hobby", owned a few and handled many more bike jackets like this - British from the 60s onwards, some American, and many from South Asia as British manufacturing died out and was replaced. Big thing about the cheaper stuff was that you could sometimes find a jacket every bit as good as a better Schott for very significantly less, but you might have to scour over three or four first, while the Schott would be fairly standard across the board. (For the record, some of the absolute worst extremes of variability I've ever seen were 70s era Lewises, and they were never cheap!)

I used to find Schott fairly priced back when they were maybe £300 and an Aero equivalent was £550; that was pretty fair a difference for my experience in relative quality. While inflation has affected both since, at least here in the UK now anywhere I can see selling new Schott Perfectos is charging Aero money, which is crazy to me - but then we're really not Schott's target market.

@Carlos840 - I don't think it's at all fair to compare Schott to Field, given they're such very, very different animals. We can't possibly expect the level of attention given a fully bespoke jacket made one at a time on individual patterns to be there in something mass-produced. Schott certainly - the odd special aside, perhaps, but even then... - are not aiming at our niche market. They're a mainstream fashion brand concerned with high unit sales. It's like comparing Alpha to Toys McCoy for MA1s.

That said....Schott do kinda invite the comparison with the money they now charge for these things. Used to be the average Schott 618 or 118 was about £300 in the UK. Now I see them being sold at eight or nine hundred, with nil change - no "improved" hide, hardware, difference in fit, made to measure - nada. Presumably though they must still be getting the money in from the fashion / mainstream market or they wouldn't still be in business... #capitalism.




I think that's a very perceptive comment. It's nice enough, but personally I don't like it more that Vicenza or Horween's CXL FQHH. Certainly wouldn't turn a jacket I liked down over it, though I've never been motivated to go out and buy one.

I'm sorry Edward but literally every point you've made is incorrect.

During the last decade, Schott has considerably raised their QC, with their premium jackets being on the level on anything out there. The Confederate MC cafe racer that I have had was among the 3 best made jackets I have ever handled, surpassing my LW's by a small but noticeable margin.

As for the leather, they've been sourcing some premium hides for a while now, from Horween to Shinki with a whole range of different stuff in between.

To say that Schott doesn't offer anything particularly new is also dead wrong because each year's line-up since 2010 has always been filled with new and actually nice & original styles - Unlike most other makers who have been milking the same old jacket for years now, RMC, FC, etc. included.

Schott has the exact same quality of make & construction as Aero with an arguably superior pattern (at least for the cross zip) and with Horween as an option, even if we are to completely disregard the gigantic brand name they have established (especially compared to Aero's), there's LITERALLY no reason why Schott should be asking one single dime less for their leather jacket.

 

[red devil]

When i say "patterns" i mean the shape of the pieces of cardboard used to cut the pieces of leather that will be used to build the jacket.
I mean the general shape of the jacket, the curvature/rotation of the sleeves compared to the shoulder, the shape of the neckhole, the way the shoulders rest on the body, how a jacket interracts with a human body.

I think other people sometimes use "patterns" as way to describe a combination of different visual cues/ design styles. To me "patterns" is about the inner working of the jacket, not what it looks like on the outside.

You could use the same pattern but dress it differently to come up with different designs/models that are all based on the same pattern.

Sorry, I had meant this as a reply to @trainspotter who answered.

Yes, I think of patterns in this way myself, just needed to clarify it

@dannyk , with the factors you have pointed in mind, I would go to Johnson Leathers instead

 

[Monitor]

Also, as Carlos points out, the difference in construction between Schott vs. Fw, RMC, and Field Leathers is indeed night and day. If others don't care, that's perfectly fine, but its not okay in my opinion to blast FW and rmc for their pricing when there is an undeniable difference in quality.

In quality of what?

RMC is slightly better made than anything premium by Schott, if even as much as with the exact same material used by the both makers, what aspect of quality are we talking about?

High end Schott is really well made. Like, seriously well. The 60's Perfecto repro that everyone on IG has been wearing is a jacket that can compete with anything out there, in terms of construction, stitching, etc.

On top of that, compared to Schott, RMC is a no name company that hasn't brought out a single original thing since the day they dug out that first Buco. Not counting jail clothes, Off-white knock-off hoodies, 80's shiny tracksuits & that disgusting $3200 rabbit fur coat.

FW is cool for having original and beautiful styles, unique to them. Like Schott does. At least until everyone starts ripping them off. Like what's everyone doing to Schott.

FC had an insanely original idea of making a Schott 618 knock-off in a leather that Schott wasn't using but now that Schott got a hold of that leather, as fool-proof of an idea as that might've seem to FC at a time, it sort of flew out the window now so... Yeah. Well, they had a good run, at least.

King is naked.

 

[Marc mndt]

This is a great discussion by the way. This is what I log in to TFL for. I love reading all of these insights, opinions and views.

 

[Carlos840]

@Carlos840 - I don't think it's at all fair to compare Schott to Field, given they're such very, very different animals. We can't possibly expect the level of attention given a fully bespoke jacket made one at a time on individual patterns to be there in something mass-produced. Schott certainly - the odd special aside, perhaps, but even then... - are not aiming at our niche market. They're a mainstream fashion brand concerned with high unit sales. It's like comparing Alpha to Toys McCoy for MA1s.

I disagree with that...
Yes, Schott will never be able to match Fields regarding the full bespoke side of things, but they could improve construction massively.

If you look at Field leathers for example he is always doing the "double back" (where the stitching overlaps itself) symetrically:

If you look at this picture you can see that the two long sides have 1 thread per stitch, the two small sides have 2 tread per stitch.
This is something that RMC and FW and most OCD japanese companies have been doing for a while, it IMO is a small detail that really increases the percevied build quality of a jacket, it just looks much neater.

Schott never does that, i don't think they are even aware that some makers bother doing that.
They don't even bother aiming for the same stitch holes when they double back, they will sometimes just do 1 giant stitch and be doen with it.

Even Aero has started doing that, i have been noticing it on more and more of their jackets recently.
IMO it is having people like Gregg work for them and doing it, and most likely having to do so many jackets with contrast stitching for TB that has made them realize it was a thing and it is now pretty standard for Aero to do that nice double back.

On a Schott jacket this is the kind of attention to detail you should be expecting:

It wouldn't take a full rework of the company to change that, all it would take is training of your machinists and standardise a new way of doing thigns.

 

[nick123]

Looks great. Ideal black jacket for the 1 jacket kind of guy. I have the CXL version of this jacket, the P663, and had to get sleeves shortened & slimmed post which it fits real nice. Sleeves appear similarly long on this one as well, may want to check with Jerri/Denise for sizing sheet before putting in the 1.4 grand
Never seen shinki leather in person, but it really looks fab

View attachment 281235

The OP jacket certainly has nice leather but this is the jewel of the thread!

 

[dannyk]

Sorry, I had meant this as a reply to @trainspotter who answered.

Yes, I think of patterns in this way myself, just needed to clarify it

@dannyk , with the factors you have pointed in mind, I would go to Johnson Leathers instead

Alan has been on my radar. I’m lucky in the sense most brands OTR size 36 fit me and haven’t needed custom work. I’m also unlucky because like no one on TFL is as small as me and nothing comes my way to pick up! Haha. It’s a blessing and a curse. Even the few members my size usually have something, like they need longer sleeves or whatever that makes the few sales/trades around here in my size unobtainable.

 

[Brandrea33]

From what I can see from my end, all sizes "L" and above are already gone...

Yes only size “S and M” is left. I guess there’s enough demand for these.

 

[Monitor]

On a Schott jacket this is the kind of attention to detail you should be expecting:

It wouldn't take a full rework of the company to change that, all it would take is training of your machinists and standardise a new way of doing thigns.

This does look exactly like something on a $2K jacket I recently had, though I don't recall it being by Schott...

 

[Edward]

I'm sorry Edward but literally every point you've made is incorrect....
Schott has the exact same quality of make & construction as Aero with an arguably superior pattern (at least for the cross zip) and with Horween as an option, even if we are to completely disregard the gigantic brand name they have established (especially compared to Aero's), there's LITERALLY no reason why Schott should be asking one single dime less for their leather jacket.

Well, let's just say it's subjective. The Schott a special editions are not on my radar as I just wouldn't buy anything off the peg at that sort of price, to be fair. But what's now being charged for their standard line here i the UK? Not a chance in hell would I pay Aero money for that - Wested or Hercules money, maybe. But hey, that's the thing about perceived value... Schott clearly have no problem finding plenty of folks who do consider them worth the money or they wouldn't still be in business.

I disagree with that...
Yes, Schott will never be able to match Fields regarding the full bespoke side of things, but they could improve construction massively.

.

I totally get what you're saying here - I just don't think it's realistic to expect the same level of attention to detail in mass production versus bespoke. It's like comparing wartime production on a run of tens of thousands of A2s to what John does at Goodwear. Schott could certainly improve what they do (as could pretty much any other manufacturer of pretty much anything, really), though I can't much imagine they have any real need to change things up as they are at the minute if their market will bear what the cost has risen to. It's always going to come down to what they can sell to their market for the best price - I just don't think most[/i people buying a Schott are going to be looking at it in the same way as Field's market. Different business model and different market. Even if the price points are not as far apart as once they were!

 

[dannyk]

Well, let's just say it's subjective. The Schott a special editions are not on my radar as I just wouldn't buy anything off the peg at that sort of price, to be fair. But what's now being charged for their standard line here i the UK? Not a chance in hell would I pay Aero money for that - Wested or Hercules money, maybe. But hey, that's the thing about perceived value... Schott clearly have no problem finding plenty of folks who do consider them worth the money or they wouldn't still be in business.



I totally get what you're saying here - I just don't think it's realistic to expect the same level of attention to detail in mass production versus bespoke. It's like comparing wartime production on a run of tens of thousands of A2s to what John does at Goodwear. Schott could certainly improve what they do (as could pretty much any other manufacturer of pretty much anything, really), though I can't much imagine they have any real need to change things up as they are at the minute if their market will bear what the cost has risen to. It's always going to come down to what they can sell to their market for the best price - I just don't think most[/i people buying a Schott are going to be looking at it in the same way as Field's market. Different business model and different market. Even if the price points are not as far apart as once they were!

Your first part is kind of my point I was trying to make up above. I think a lot of this depends on where you live. My conversion rate US to UK currency is brutal. Aeros are just as expensive as Schott give or take and after taxes and shipping almost always more expensive. The European Schotts are also usually even more
Inferior than the US made. Which for you guys are more expensive. Then there’s the overhead costs of labor for made in US, and their huge business compared to any small lines. The quality, design, otr, bespoke, customizations are all a separate matter. I simply mean apples to apples comparisons of base prices for base jackets. Everything after that is up for discussion to me. Everything after that is certainly debatable.

 

[Monitor]

Well, let's just say it's subjective. The Schott a special editions are not on my radar as I just wouldn't buy anything off the peg at that sort of price, to be fair. But what's now being charged for their standard line here i the UK? Not a chance in hell would I pay Aero money for that - Wested or Hercules money, maybe. But hey, that's the thing about perceived value... Schott clearly have no problem finding plenty of folks who do consider them worth the money or they wouldn't still be in business.

But that's what I'm saying - It's the other way around and it always has been; Why would you pay Schott money for an Aero. If Schott is using the exact same material, same building technique AND you get their own proprietary design & style (arguable, I know, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say that Schott does hold moral high ground in calling the Perfecto their own style) and not a knock-off, what exactly makes Aero's cross-zip more valuable?

If Schott was your company and has been for over a 100 years and if you've made it a world famous brand, would you honestly believe that your jacket isn't worth as much as what other, relatively small-time makers that are directly copying what you have created, are asking for their reproductions? Of your jacket?

In reality, Aero has an edge in being "bespoke", so to say. Which, at BEST, should make their jacket compete price-wise with Schott in Horween but that's about it.

 

[Marc mndt]

In reality, Aero has an edge in being "bespoke", so to say. Which, at BEST, should make their jacket compete price-wise with Schott in Horween but that's about it.

There is a difference between bespoke (pattern changes=what FL does) and custom (adding sleeve- or body length or a few other minor deviations on the basic pattern = what Aero does)