dr.velociraptor
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I don't think anyone says that the felt fusing wasn't in the jackets, but were the hides less than 1.2 - 1.4 mm on their cycle jackets?
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Schott 585 Vintage Motorcycle Jacket
- Thread starter Hammer Down
- Start date
I don't think anyone says that the felt fusing wasn't in the jackets, but were the hides less than 1.2 - 1.4 mm on their cycle jackets?
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- East Central Indiana
With the felt backing...probably not.
dr.velociraptor
One of the Regulars
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Unless someone measured with calipers stating a companies leathers were less than the required thickness for an MC jacket (typically 1.2 -1.4 mm) is probably ill advised at best, libelous at worst.
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Hmm...don't think so dr. velocirapter...
I had several Schott perfectos in the '60s and '70s(heavy steer)...then bought another around 2000...and my last one (horsehide) about three years or so ago. I never noticed the spongy backing until the last two...and I sold them on. Even Tommer commented how thin the actual hide was after he ripped out the fused felt. Guess after customers raised hell..Schott discontinued the felt(why they ever started using it...or how long they used it...I have no idea!). Now Schott hides seem to be of substancial weight similar to what they once were..without the backing.
HD
I had several Schott perfectos in the '60s and '70s(heavy steer)...then bought another around 2000...and my last one (horsehide) about three years or so ago. I never noticed the spongy backing until the last two...and I sold them on. Even Tommer commented how thin the actual hide was after he ripped out the fused felt. Guess after customers raised hell..Schott discontinued the felt(why they ever started using it...or how long they used it...I have no idea!). Now Schott hides seem to be of substancial weight similar to what they once were..without the backing.
HD
dr.velociraptor
One of the Regulars
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It doesn't matter how many of their jackets you have had in the past, it really has no bearing on the matter. Speculating that Schott was selling hides significantly less than the required thickness for an MC jacket without inspecting the jacket or measuring it with calipers is probably ill advised. I really don't think Schott would sell hides of less than the required thickness for their MC jackets, they've been making them for nearly 100 years and know how critical a thick hide is for protection, and to state otherwise on a forum like this without being able to prove it is a bad idea IMO.
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- East Central Indiana
I think that you are missing the point.
Schott's hide 'with the backing fused onto the thin hide' made it 'thick' enough for a MC jacket...but gave the 'hide' a more spongy plasticlike appearance compared to the natural grainy hide that they onced used..and now use. After someone noticed the 'backing'...underneath the lining..they realized what was causing that different look. What does have bearing is that Tommer was one of the first to investigate and then complain..then others expressed WTH. Evidentally the actual thin steerhide/horsehide..minus the fused felt encouraged a change back to please the customer. It doesn't take a caliper..or even a genius to pull the fused or glued felt off of the actual hide and then realize it wasn't near as thick as it seemed...except for the fiber padding. To me..Tommer did prove it..along with inspection of my jackets..I had no doubt .
HD
Schott's hide 'with the backing fused onto the thin hide' made it 'thick' enough for a MC jacket...but gave the 'hide' a more spongy plasticlike appearance compared to the natural grainy hide that they onced used..and now use. After someone noticed the 'backing'...underneath the lining..they realized what was causing that different look. What does have bearing is that Tommer was one of the first to investigate and then complain..then others expressed WTH. Evidentally the actual thin steerhide/horsehide..minus the fused felt encouraged a change back to please the customer. It doesn't take a caliper..or even a genius to pull the fused or glued felt off of the actual hide and then realize it wasn't near as thick as it seemed...except for the fiber padding. To me..Tommer did prove it..along with inspection of my jackets..I had no doubt .
HD
dr.velociraptor
One of the Regulars
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- 285
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- Hudson Valley NY
I believe you are missing the point, the hide only need be 1.2 - 1.4 mm thick, and if the hide were more flimsy without the fusing that doesn't mean the hide isn't an appropriate thickness for MC wear, I've seen plenty of goat jackets that seemed very thin and light but were in fact 1.3 mm thick and a true MC jacket. For you to state about a jacket you neither touched, measured or saw in person that a company that sells MC jackets for nearly a century was selling jackets not of adequate thickness is irresponsible. Not as thick as it seemed and too thin for MC use or not 1.2 - 1.4 mm in thickness are two totally different things.
Any jacket where you remove the liners, cuffs etc... and go down to bare unlined leather is going to feel significantly less substantial especially if already broken in, so unless you actually measure the leather thickness you should refrain from defaming a company like Schott, it's a pretty serious accusation to say they were selling jackets where the leather wasn't appropriately thick for riding without any evidence of that. Look at the lawsuit Mickelson is filing to reveal a message board poster and sue him personally for defamation. What we say online is becoming less and less anonymous, and on a site like this where people take what is said as gospel no matter who says it people should be cognizant of that.
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- Messages
- 15,563
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- East Central Indiana
Well..Tommer stated it about his Schott jacket(and also others on Schott's forum). I had two jackets with the fused fiber backing. So I did 'touch it'...and examine it. I also have Aero's...Vanson...and vintage HH MC jackets that have no 'fused fiber' backing. No need for it with a normal weight hide. I suggest you read/reread Tommers posts on the link I provided...or just dismiss what you don't want to hear. Makes little difference.
HD
HD
dr.velociraptor
One of the Regulars
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- 285
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- Hudson Valley NY
Read it and didn't see anything about the hide being less than 1.2 - 1.4 mm thickness.
"I'm no leather expert, but I do have quite a few jackets, and I'd probably say that at the absolute thickest some parts of the jacket are 3oz. Schott may be able to tell you differently.. I don't know."
That's some pretty scientific stuff there. I can see how you can now decide that the leather was not 1.2 - 1.4 mm as you claim from a jacket you neither saw, measured, touched. You didn't handle the hide with the felt fuseable removed, all you're doing is gossiping at this point by stating a company like Schott knowingly sold hides not of a safe thickness in their jackets.
- Messages
- 15,563
- Location
- East Central Indiana
Whatever,
Who cares.
I know what I had..
You don't.
I'm sure your new one is as it should be. So get a grip.[huh]
HD
Who cares.
I know what I had..
You don't.
I'm sure your new one is as it should be. So get a grip.[huh]
HD
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dr.velociraptor
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 285
- Location
- Hudson Valley NY
It has nothing to do with the jacket I just bought, I read all about the felt lining before I purchased my Legendary jacket years ago and this latest Schott jacket, it's nothing new to me. I've also owned Vanson and other Schott jackets and I could never state what mm thickness any of those jackets were on a visual inspection alone. Point is neither can you, so it would be better to not accuse a company that's USA owned and operated and been in business nearly a century on a site like this of something so nefarious without proof.
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- Messages
- 15,563
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- East Central Indiana
It doesn't matter what you read about...or what Schott jacket you've owned. ..it has no bearing! lol
Hammer Down
One of the Regulars
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- Chicago
Great ideas here
I think you both raise some valid points, guys. I just got done watching the Superbowl and logged in to the Fedora Lounge. This discussion is very interesting to me, very interesting indeed. I also like it when people say what they mean and avoid the PC tippy toeing. After all, we are customers and we are entitled to talk about such things without acting like we are clothing reps and our jobs depend on saying the PC thing and worrying about being sued by lawyers. Has it really come to this? Are we paranoid on a website devoted to precisely such things to the extent that we can't mention even the possibility of improprieties? We are consumers. We are customers. We are the people that need to be pleased. Our opinions matter and they are valid. If a company, no matter how prestigious or how old, makes a mistake, then it's still a mistake and we don't need to pretend like it's okay, or to excuse the mistake. The main thing is that the mistake was corrected and is not still being made.
If it's true that Schott was using those hides that had the shady felts, then Schott might not have realized it. The big thing here is "IF."
Is there any proof? If there is, then it's worth talking about. If not, then it's worth clearing Schotts's name. I have no idea if it's true, but if we are expected to self-censor ourselves so much that the truth cannot be determined, then we are consumer slaves that have been mentally conditioned by a litigious culture of corporate domination, rather than free men. This web site is made for discussing matters of style, quality control, and taste, etc. So bringing it up seems valid to me. I guess I would like to hear more "proof" as to whether it happened on a wide spread scale, or just in isolated instances. So . . . if the proof surfaces and there were more than just a few jackets made with dummy felt, well, then this sort of thing should have been obvious to those who were working with the material. I'm no expert or anything but if the practice of using "dummy" felts was widespread then it was a problem. The main thing for me is that the problem was corrected. Still, if it did happen then it doesn't look good. It at least gives the appearance of shadiness and cutting corners to save costs and raise profit margins. Who knows? I'm not a mind reader and I was not there.
If I bought a bar of gold and found a layer of lead inside, then I would be seriously pissed off. Is a horsehide leather jacket really that different? Maybe so. But if the jacket was designed to feel like it was thicker leather than it was, then that is bogus and I don't mind stating my opinion on the record. I'm not saying it has been proved, but IF it is proved that a significant number of jackets went out that way, well, then that is a quality control issue that is worth discussing. You guys should be interested to investigate such matters. After all, from what I've read on this site, you are both experts in your own right. I am just a novice. I would never have even thought of such a thing. In fact, reading your posts has been a real education for me. I will look more closely at backer felts from now on! Kudos!
One thing is certain: If someone out there bought a Schott that has the "dummy" felt on it, then that person should be entitled to trade in their jacket for a bonafide leather jacket in the proper thickness. I think that Schott would probably honor such a request. I've found Schott's management and customer service to be absolutely top notch. I have owned several Schott leather jackets over the years and I found the workmanship to be exceptional. Then again, I have had problems with getting a good fit from Schott leather jackets. The 641HH was made for medium height stalky men. I am taller, with a narrow waist and wide shoulders. Their "causal racer" in XL did not fit me either. I tried one on and could barely move through the shoulders and the arm holes. As for the quality of my 641HH, I loved it. The leather seemed naturally thick and generous. Then again, I never really paid any attention to the felt backing, but it sure felt genuine and real. It did not feel "rubbery" or fake at all. If my 641HH had fit me better, I would never ever have sold it. I really like the look of the casual racer and was sorry that it did not fit better. The leather was beautiful and perfect for wearing in warm weather and mild days in spring and fall. It was just what I had been looking for, but, alas, it did not fit. You win some and you lose some.
I think you both raise some valid points, guys. I just got done watching the Superbowl and logged in to the Fedora Lounge. This discussion is very interesting to me, very interesting indeed. I also like it when people say what they mean and avoid the PC tippy toeing. After all, we are customers and we are entitled to talk about such things without acting like we are clothing reps and our jobs depend on saying the PC thing and worrying about being sued by lawyers. Has it really come to this? Are we paranoid on a website devoted to precisely such things to the extent that we can't mention even the possibility of improprieties? We are consumers. We are customers. We are the people that need to be pleased. Our opinions matter and they are valid. If a company, no matter how prestigious or how old, makes a mistake, then it's still a mistake and we don't need to pretend like it's okay, or to excuse the mistake. The main thing is that the mistake was corrected and is not still being made.
If it's true that Schott was using those hides that had the shady felts, then Schott might not have realized it. The big thing here is "IF."
Is there any proof? If there is, then it's worth talking about. If not, then it's worth clearing Schotts's name. I have no idea if it's true, but if we are expected to self-censor ourselves so much that the truth cannot be determined, then we are consumer slaves that have been mentally conditioned by a litigious culture of corporate domination, rather than free men. This web site is made for discussing matters of style, quality control, and taste, etc. So bringing it up seems valid to me. I guess I would like to hear more "proof" as to whether it happened on a wide spread scale, or just in isolated instances. So . . . if the proof surfaces and there were more than just a few jackets made with dummy felt, well, then this sort of thing should have been obvious to those who were working with the material. I'm no expert or anything but if the practice of using "dummy" felts was widespread then it was a problem. The main thing for me is that the problem was corrected. Still, if it did happen then it doesn't look good. It at least gives the appearance of shadiness and cutting corners to save costs and raise profit margins. Who knows? I'm not a mind reader and I was not there.
If I bought a bar of gold and found a layer of lead inside, then I would be seriously pissed off. Is a horsehide leather jacket really that different? Maybe so. But if the jacket was designed to feel like it was thicker leather than it was, then that is bogus and I don't mind stating my opinion on the record. I'm not saying it has been proved, but IF it is proved that a significant number of jackets went out that way, well, then that is a quality control issue that is worth discussing. You guys should be interested to investigate such matters. After all, from what I've read on this site, you are both experts in your own right. I am just a novice. I would never have even thought of such a thing. In fact, reading your posts has been a real education for me. I will look more closely at backer felts from now on! Kudos!
One thing is certain: If someone out there bought a Schott that has the "dummy" felt on it, then that person should be entitled to trade in their jacket for a bonafide leather jacket in the proper thickness. I think that Schott would probably honor such a request. I've found Schott's management and customer service to be absolutely top notch. I have owned several Schott leather jackets over the years and I found the workmanship to be exceptional. Then again, I have had problems with getting a good fit from Schott leather jackets. The 641HH was made for medium height stalky men. I am taller, with a narrow waist and wide shoulders. Their "causal racer" in XL did not fit me either. I tried one on and could barely move through the shoulders and the arm holes. As for the quality of my 641HH, I loved it. The leather seemed naturally thick and generous. Then again, I never really paid any attention to the felt backing, but it sure felt genuine and real. It did not feel "rubbery" or fake at all. If my 641HH had fit me better, I would never ever have sold it. I really like the look of the casual racer and was sorry that it did not fit better. The leather was beautiful and perfect for wearing in warm weather and mild days in spring and fall. It was just what I had been looking for, but, alas, it did not fit. You win some and you lose some.
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Dr. Velociraptor - I rarely ever call anybody out, but you really need to lighten up a bit. I have read this whole thread, and I don't see anyone accusing Schott of any malfeasance. It's a proven fact that they were using a thinner (read: less expensive) leather for a period of time, and their customers caught on. It sounds like they listened to their customers and changed the material, and I applaud them for that.
Would the leather have been thick enough to protect the rider in crash? Sure, it most likely would be. I don't see that as being the issue here. The issue most people seem to have is that they feel that a jacket in this price range should be made from thick, supple leather, not thinner leather with a felt backing.
Schott is like any other American manufacturer in this day and age - they're trying to make a profit so they can keep their doors open. However, if they choose to cut costs by using cheaper materials, they will get called out on it. End of story. I'd like to see Schott continue making goods in the USA too, but customer loyalty is built on the quality of one's product and one's customer service. The customer spoke up, Schott changed their practice, and the end product is now better as a result. It sounds like a win to me.
Would the leather have been thick enough to protect the rider in crash? Sure, it most likely would be. I don't see that as being the issue here. The issue most people seem to have is that they feel that a jacket in this price range should be made from thick, supple leather, not thinner leather with a felt backing.
Schott is like any other American manufacturer in this day and age - they're trying to make a profit so they can keep their doors open. However, if they choose to cut costs by using cheaper materials, they will get called out on it. End of story. I'd like to see Schott continue making goods in the USA too, but customer loyalty is built on the quality of one's product and one's customer service. The customer spoke up, Schott changed their practice, and the end product is now better as a result. It sounds like a win to me.
dr.velociraptor
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 285
- Location
- Hudson Valley NY
Jammer if you read the entire topic someone clearly did say that the leather was too light for MC use, and only thick enough with the liner. This is something I took issue with, as Schott states that the hide is between 3.5 and 4.0 ounces. To claim that they were selling leathers that would endanger people on a motorcycle is irresponsible IMO.
AtlantaSpike
Familiar Face
- Messages
- 79
- Location
- Atlanta
I hesitate to resurrect a zombie thread, especially one with a mild tiff, but I can't PM Dav, and would really like to know if he still has this for sale. PM me Dav, or if anyone has contact info please let me know -
Thanks -
Spike
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Hammer Down
One of the Regulars
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BTW: I tried on the 585 and did not like it. The leather is thin and the construction and seams did not impress me. It seemed consistent with a fairly nice leather jacket that one might find in a shopping mall in an average American city or suburbs.
Most bikers would know this jacket is for show if they could examine one in person. However, if anyone out there is ordering online with the intention of wearing this jacket on a motorcycle regularly, don't.
Even for wear off the bike, I was not overly impressed.
Schott has a long history of making some very fine jackets, to be sure. The company still does, of course. However, the 585, IMO, is not the best Schott has to offer.
Most bikers would know this jacket is for show if they could examine one in person. However, if anyone out there is ordering online with the intention of wearing this jacket on a motorcycle regularly, don't.
Even for wear off the bike, I was not overly impressed.
Schott has a long history of making some very fine jackets, to be sure. The company still does, of course. However, the 585, IMO, is not the best Schott has to offer.
AtlantaSpike
Familiar Face
- Messages
- 79
- Location
- Atlanta
Wow - I almost pulled the trigger on one about 10 minutes ago and decided to do a bit more looking. I guess I should go find one in person first.
Actual Schott 585 owner
I've discovered that some took my image in the original post:
The fetching torso in the first picture belongs to me.
Here's my one-year-ish review of the jacket.
So, to answer the original questions
1. How thick is the leather?
I don't have an appropriate caliper to measure the leather thickness, but it's as-thick or thicker than anything I've come across in the motorcycle shops I frequent. I can confirm that there's no foam, plastic, or felt fused to the hide.
2. Do you like the color?
Very much so, but to each his own.
3. How is the fit in the shoulders? Too roomy? I have kinda big shoulders but not "house" sized.
Not too roomy, but that will also be a matter of personal taste. The leather is heavy enough to drape instead of being boxy. Once it's broken-in, of course.
4. Does it need breaking in?
Yes, but not as much as something like the horsehide Aero someone posted. I washed it without detergent and then wore it wet for the day.
5. How would you rate it compared with an Aero. I love Aeros and am debating getting a vintage looking brown jacket from Aero instead of this Schott or a brown Vanson Mercury.
I can't help you there.
6. Does the style of this model jacket really look vintage to you? It looks fairly modern to me.
I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder, but I've been told the jacket makes me look like I'm from the '50s.
The folks who claim it's "not for riding" amuse me. I've been riding all year in this jacket, over 12000 miles, and while it's not a modern, ventilated design, it's served me well.
I've discovered that some took my image in the original post:
The fetching torso in the first picture belongs to me.
Here's my one-year-ish review of the jacket.
So, to answer the original questions
1. How thick is the leather?
I don't have an appropriate caliper to measure the leather thickness, but it's as-thick or thicker than anything I've come across in the motorcycle shops I frequent. I can confirm that there's no foam, plastic, or felt fused to the hide.
2. Do you like the color?
Very much so, but to each his own.
3. How is the fit in the shoulders? Too roomy? I have kinda big shoulders but not "house" sized.
Not too roomy, but that will also be a matter of personal taste. The leather is heavy enough to drape instead of being boxy. Once it's broken-in, of course.
4. Does it need breaking in?
Yes, but not as much as something like the horsehide Aero someone posted. I washed it without detergent and then wore it wet for the day.
5. How would you rate it compared with an Aero. I love Aeros and am debating getting a vintage looking brown jacket from Aero instead of this Schott or a brown Vanson Mercury.
I can't help you there.
6. Does the style of this model jacket really look vintage to you? It looks fairly modern to me.
I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder, but I've been told the jacket makes me look like I'm from the '50s.
The folks who claim it's "not for riding" amuse me. I've been riding all year in this jacket, over 12000 miles, and while it's not a modern, ventilated design, it's served me well.
