Scarecrow Yah Ta Hey leathers

[Arrandale]

Dunno about water buffalo, but if we are talking about uncommon hides I should mention yak leather. I read some good things about it, might be obtainable out of Mongolia or China.

Yak leather! Very interesting. The problem is, where should I investigate to obtain this unknown leather.
By the way, is camel leather available?

 

[Coriu]

Elkskin is used for welding gloves. It is naturally heat and abrasion resistant. In terms of protection, I believe elkskin and kangaroo are likely as good as it gets. However, like deerskin, they are susceptible to scuffing and scratching.

When one considers all of the variables between looks and functionality, I think it is tough to beat horsehide.

 

[Arrandale]

Elkskin is used for welding gloves. It is naturally heat and abrasion resistant. In terms of protection, I believe elkskin and kangaroo are likely as good as it gets. However, like deerskin, they are susceptible to scuffing and scratching.

When one considers all of the variables between looks and functionality, I think it is tough to beat horsehide.

Japanese thinks horsehide is a special hide, and is very expensive.
American made horsehide jackets as well as steerhide jackets are really good and tough, but Japanese jackets, whether horsehide or steerhide, is too fragile for daily use. For example, Real McCoy’s leather jackets gets a hole at the elbow. They might be good at reproduction of old jackets like Buco but their products are too expensive.
Fine Creek leather jackets are expensive but the leather is thin. Four Speed jackets uses thin leather, and if you ordered them to use, for instance 6 ounce steerhide, they will tell you their sewing machine cannot deal with such a heavy leather.
Most of the craftsman speaks in a condescending tone like ‘ We are professionals and you are amateurs. You know nothing about making a leather jacket, so just shut up and leave the jacket making to us.’

 

[Coriu]

Japanese thinks horsehide is a special hide, and is very expensive.
American made horsehide jackets as well as steerhide jackets are really good and tough, but Japanese jackets, whether horsehide or steerhide, is too fragile for daily use. For example, Real McCoy’s leather jackets gets a hole at the elbow. They might be good at reproduction of old jackets like Buco but their products are too expensive.
Fine Creek leather jackets are expensive but the leather is thin. Four Speed jackets uses thin leather, and if you ordered them to use, for instance 6 ounce steerhide, they will tell you their sewing machine cannot deal with such a heavy leather.
Most of the craftsman speaks in a condescending tone like ‘ We are professionals and you are amateurs. You know nothing about making a leather jacket, so just shut up and leave the jacket making to us.’

That must be very frustrating.

 

[Arrandale]

That must be very frustrating.

Exactly. They lack the idea that the customer is always right. Their idea that they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone comes first.
Mr. Alan Zaffrin, the owner of Johnson Leather is completely opposite kind of a person. He somehow realises all of my request, even though the request is insane like using 7.3 ounce bullhide.

 

[Coriu]

Exactly. They lack the idea that the customer is always right. Their idea that they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone comes first.
Mr. Alan Zaffrin, the owner of Johnson Leather is completely opposite kind of a person. He somehow realises all of my request, even though the request is insane like using 7.3 ounce bullhide.

The greatest tradesmen/craftsmen I ever met were humble individuals...without exception....always willing to listen and learn and push the limits. Fortunately we do not have any "experts" in the US who beat their chest excessively concerning the greatness of their jackets.

 

[Arrandale]

Yes, you understand everything I have in mind. Mr. Alan Zaffrin is that kind of a craftsman, always humble, willing to listen and realize the customer’s request, and paying endless efforts to provide the best among the best quality jackets.
Japanese industry has a dual structure. Large-scale manufacturing industry with excellent equipment such as Panasonic, Hitachi, Sumitomo etc. and small-scale manufacturing industry with poor equipment. All the leather garment shops belong to the latter. They tend to reduce material costs and increase profit margin. They can’t help it. That’s the only way they can survive.

 

[Guppy]

Japanese thinks horsehide is a special hide, and is very expensive.
American made horsehide jackets as well as steerhide jackets are really good and tough, but Japanese jackets, whether horsehide or steerhide, is too fragile for daily use. For example, Real McCoy’s leather jackets gets a hole at the elbow. They might be good at reproduction of old jackets like Buco but their products are too expensive.
Fine Creek leather jackets are expensive but the leather is thin. Four Speed jackets uses thin leather, and if you ordered them to use, for instance 6 ounce steerhide, they will tell you their sewing machine cannot deal with such a heavy leather.
Most of the craftsman speaks in a condescending tone like ‘ We are professionals and you are amateurs. You know nothing about making a leather jacket, so just shut up and leave the jacket making to us.’

To be fair 6oz is super thick leather for a jacket and it probably is too much for many sewing machines. 3oz+ should be adequate thickness for just about anything you want to do in normal life. You can certainly go thicker, but like with anything there are trade-offs involved.

I tend to find leathers thinner than 2.5oz to feel subjectively "too thin" for use in a jacket, and prefer heavier leathers around 3.5-4 oz the most. Anything thicker than that can start to get impractical, making the jacket less comfortable without the gains in durability being necessary or worthwhile. In a motorcycle jacket going thicker can be a good thing, particularly at points that are likely to be dragged along the pavement in a slide. But armor panels are generally a better way to go than increasing overall thickness.

 

[Arrandale]

Well, it’s a matter of taste to appreciate unusually thick leather, and in that case practicality is ignored.

 

[Guppy]

Well, it’s a matter of taste to appreciate unusually thick leather, and in that case practicality is ignored.

Of course. But if a shop cannot work in the weight you're requesting because their machines cannot handle it, they will be right to refuse your order. A better shop might be willing to refer you to someone who can, if they exist, perhaps.

 

[roadking04]

I am a huge fan of heavier (3.5-4.5oz) leather, which is light/mid weight leather to @Arrandale and @Hh121. lol. My jackets are all used as motorcycle jackets, so I much prefer the heavier weight. Plus, you have the challenge/satisfaction of breaking in a new heavy-duty piece of equipment. And let's not forget about bragging rights when you are drinking a beer with your biker buddies.

The search for a new heavy/heaviest leather jacket is what lead me to this forum 12 years ago. I was in a motorcycle accident in my Harley Davidson jacket many years ago. The jacket did its job and saved my skin, but wore a quarter-sized hole in the shoulder. I needed a new jacket and wanted something heavy duty. My next jacket was a Vanson hardcore highwayman and I never looked at lightweight leather jackets again.

I am a fan of the heavyweight division. I love seeing pics of the heavy hides as they break in and become more worn. Hopefully we can see this BEAST break in and become wearable. I know doubleH has been giving his jacket hell and it is starting to break in nicely.

 

[Coriu]

Based upon what I have read, the jury is still out on synthetics and leather is arguably as effective as anything out there. One study I read basically concluded, "the thicker the better." However, if 4oz leather was not substantial enough, and the need for better protection was evident through accident case studies, I think there would be much more demand.

I do think that synthetics will continue to evolve and possibly be a more viable option in the future. However, there are currently hundreds of thousands of hides being landfilled each year, so it would be a shame not to search for ways to use them...like more leather jackets.

 

[Arrandale]

Of course. But if a shop cannot work in the weight you're requesting because their machines cannot handle it, they will be right to refuse your order. A better shop might be willing to refer you to someone who can, if they exist, perhaps.

Exactly. I never thought such a shop exists. My last hope was Big Twin, a shop in Shibuya, Tokyo who listens to customer’s request to a certain point. Well, suppose I requested a jacket with one piece back panel. The owner will decline this saying that they cannot secure such a large piece of leather.
In Japan everything works this way. The shop owner thinks he knows everything.
Johnson Leather, a shop in San Francisco is totally different. The owner, Mr. Alan Zaffrin listens to the even the peripheral minute request like what zippers I will like to use. I wanted a YKK zippers because it is very robust. I didn’t want to deal with broken zippers because exchanging zippers will be a daunting task and will never be the same again.
Johnson Leather offered ＃10 YKK nickel zippers.
I was lucky enough to get to know Johnson Leather through Fedora Lounge. He suddenly appeared and told us it was Mr. Zaffrin who made Yah-Ta Hey double motorcycle jacket by the request of Scarecrow Company. The jacket was the same as the one in my closet.

 

[Arrandale]

Based upon what I have read, the jury is still out on synthetics and leather is arguably as effective as anything out there. One study I read basically concluded, "the thicker the better." However, if 4oz leather was not substantial enough, and the need for better protection was evident through accident case studies, I think there would be much more demand.

I do think that synthetics will continue to evolve and possibly be a more viable option in the future. However, there are currently hundreds of thousands of hides being landfilled each year, so it would be a shame not to search for ways to use them...like more leather jackets.

Synthetic fiber might be stronger than steerhide, horsehide etc.. Kevlar is one of them. Spectra fiber is even better than Kevlar. It is 40% stronger.
But no matter how synthetic fiber evolves, I love steerhide anyway.

 

[Coriu]

Synthetic fiber might be stronger than steerhide, horsehide etc.. Kevlar is one of them. Spectra fiber is even better than Kevlar. It is 40% stronger.
But no matter how synthetic fiber evolves, I love steerhide anyway.

I read a summary of some real-world testing that was done and synthetics underperformed.

"Strength" is a very broad word from an engineering perspective. One has to precisely define what properties one desires.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Kevlar doesn't breath. You will feel uncomfortably clammy. If you wear vest outside the leather it will also make it feel clammy. There are a lot of fancy tech now. They are better. But they don't look very classic cool. Which is important to me. (For the older enthusiasts) There has always been the two groups, fully protected all the time, or the more casual guys. The younger kids are not in the position to afford all the fancy gear, tech or old school.

Thickness in the 4oz range is a really good balance. Thicker than usual but still very wearable. The thinner stuff (2.5oz) just feels cheap and unsafe.

I really enjoy all the super heavy weight jackets posted here in this forum. While they don't seem like they have a purpose right now, It is always a purpose to push the limits in the longer run. If we don't try we would not fail but we also would not learn and get better. Go heavyweight jackets!

 

[Arrandale]

I read a summary of some real-world testing that was done and synthetics underperformed.

"Strength" is a very broad word from an engineering perspective. One has to precisely define what properties one desires.

Yes, you’re absolutely right. I should have defined strength by
(1) stretch strength
(2)compressive strength
(3)sheer strength
(4)twist strength
(5)penetration strength
(6)destruction strength
(7)heat resistance
(8)low temperature resistance
(9)acid resistance
(10)alkali resistance
(11)anti-ultra violet ray resistance
(12)electric shock strength
(13)magnetic field strength
(14)dielectric strength
(15)Young’s modulus
(16)bulk modulus
etc..
Attaching a data table might be more precise. These things reminds me of the time I was working for an American conglomerate. The company was absorbed into a different company and I decided to return to Japan and entered a medical university. Those were my sad days.

I read a summary of some real-world testing that was done and synthetics underperformed.

"Strength" is a very broad word from an engineering perspective. One has to precisely define what properties one desires.

I read a summary of some real-world testing that was done and synthetics underperformed.

"Strength" is a very broad word from an engineering perspective. One has to precisely define what properties one desires.

 

[JMax]

I am a huge fan of heavier (3.5-4.5oz) leather, which is light/mid weight leather to @Arrandale and @Hh121. lol. My jackets are all used as motorcycle jackets, so I much prefer the heavier weight. Plus, you have the challenge/satisfaction of breaking in a new heavy-duty piece of equipment. And let's not forget about bragging rights when you are drinking a beer with your biker buddies.

The search for a new heavy/heaviest leather jacket is what lead me to this forum 12 years ago. I was in a motorcycle accident in my Harley Davidson jacket many years ago. The jacket did its job and saved my skin, but wore a quarter-sized hole in the shoulder. I needed a new jacket and wanted something heavy duty. My next jacket was a Vanson hardcore highwayman and I never looked at lightweight leather jackets again.

I am a fan of the heavyweight division. I love seeing pics of the heavy hides as they break in and become more worn. Hopefully we can see this BEAST break in and become wearable. I know doubleH has been giving his jacket hell and it is starting to break in nicely.