Rosie the Riveter

[Miss Neecerie]

Ok, but a huge amount of women either want children later in life or don't want them at all. Is it ok to cut their wages so that there is more money to go around for men (or women with stay-at-home husbands) to provide for the families that they choose to have?

Considering I -already- make 75 cents on the dollar that a male in my profession makes.....

Even if this is not the rationale why....it is in effect the same thing.

 

[cecil]

see sharpsburg. I believe this is what happened. A few bitter women started a whole movement because they hated men.
Still happens today really.
Men are great. I love men. Not all are good and not all are bad. They are useful for many things. lol
Now you have young men that expect the woman to work and alot of young men completely disrespecting woman. Violence against women is at an all time high.
This to me is a byproduct of those bitter women.
They planted bitter seeds and it is now bearing fruit. Not good fruit.

I love men too! lol

Would domestic violence etc perhaps be at an all-time high because in the past it was not considered as bad as it is now, and that victims now have more rights and support and therefore are more likely to report said violence, though? I'd say the statistic for sexual assault would be similar: higher perhaps not because of an increase in incidence but an increase in indicents being reported.

 

[cecil]

Considering I -already- make 75 cents on the dollar that a male in my profession makes.....

Even if this is not the rationale why....it is in effect the same thing.

Not fair! I know that pay still isn't truly equal though. A new survey pops up every now and then suggesting as much.

 

[C-dot]

We could do with less "Stupid" and "Crapola" and more listening to each other.

Unfortunately, some will never grasp this concept.

I'm going to go talk to a can of paint. I'm sure I will have a more fruitful conversation...

No disrespect intended to the many open minded ladies in this thread - But, respectfully, I'm opting out.

 

[LizzieMaine]

This is true, but I truly believe that the radical "stupid" few (I'm no fan of The Female Eunuch myself!) opened MANY doors for the not-radical majority. This is what I'm saying. I've already said that second-wave feminism was picked apart and reconsidered by the third. There were aspects of it that were not quite right. The bra-burning and sit-ins seem very silly now, but they were a part of something that was, overall, important. I don't think it's accurate to call the whole movement stupid.

I think the second wave shot itself in the foot with its own rhetorical excesses -- I mean, I challenge anyone today to read somebody like Mary Daly with a straight face. That sort of stuff turned the movement into a parody of itself, and to me, anyway, wasted a lot of time and energy that should have been spent on more practical and productive things that related to the real lives of real women. Never mind about burning your damn bra, do something about the lack of safety guards on the machines women are running at the t-shirt factory.

 

[Sharpsburg]

see sharpsburg. I believe this is what happened. A few bitter women started a whole movement because they hated men.
Still happens today really.
Men are great. I love men. Not all are good and not all are bad. They are useful for many things. lol
Now you have young men that expect the woman to work and alot of young men completely disrespecting woman. Violence against women is at an all time high.
This to me is a byproduct of those bitter women.
They planted bitter seeds and it is now bearing fruit. Not good fruit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifeminism

Bitterness is evident more often in unfulfilled, unhappy, sad men and women who have not taken advantage of the opportunities available to all now, not just a select few, as in the past. loving men or not has nothing to do about feminism. We are not bitter about anything. That is long past. men continue to be unhappy that the status quo has been overturned and some women are sorry they have been knocked off their pedastal and been forced to stand on their own 2 feet.

no, i'm not a lesbian, i dig men too, but i for one will never go back to the corset and hoop-skirt!

Thus endeth the lesson...

 

[ThesFlishThngs]

I enjoy a corset. But you can keep the hoops.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

There is feminism...and then there is Feminism.

and I think what some of the non-feminists (per their own words) in this discussion are sort of missing is that these two things are not the same...

most of us are grateful for what our foremothers fought for and got regarding civil rights. etc...there is no doubt nor argument there.

This includes the option to work outside the home, which depending on circumstances may or may not be possible.

This bucket should really be called Female rights, or some such...


Then there is Feminism. Thats the one people keep throwing into this discussion with the men hating comments...and the 'its a shame women have to work outside the home at all....' comments..


Its rather like saying a Grapefruit is an Lime. Their share a fundamental citrus ancestor....but not the same fruit.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There is feminism...and then there is Feminism.

and I think what some of the non-feminists (per their own words) in this discussion are sort of missing is that these two things are not the same...

most of us are grateful for what our foremothers fought for and got regarding civil rights. etc...there is no doubt nor argument there.

This includes the option to work outside the home, which depending on circumstances may or may not be possible.

This bucket should really be called Female rights, or some such...


Then there is Feminism. Thats the one people keep throwing into this discussion with the men hating comments...and the 'its a shame women have to work outside the home at all....' comments..


Its rather like saying a Grapefruit is an Lime. Their share a fundamental citrus ancestor....but not the same fruit.

Bingo. That's exactly the point I've been reaching for -- the difference between a philosophy and an Ideology.

 

[SayCici]

feminists want so many women working and same pay. they could care less if they are exhausted and family hurting. pitiful.

No. That is not want feminists want (besides same pay, because why wouldn't there be equal pay), or how they feel. This, like almost every other statement made by you, is not fact based at all. The "threat" you perceive is coming from your own ignorance of this subject. I have never before heard the incorrect blanket statements you espouse, and then take offense to.

A few bitter women started a whole movement because they hated men.

More ignorance.

It is amazing how so many issues are being over-simplified and then blamed on a passed feminist movement, because women dared to say they deserved a right to vote, to get a college degree, to have ambition. Why is the man not expected to pull any weight in the family, and everything left up to the woman?

My grandma was poor from the time she was born to late in her life. She didn't have an education beyond middle school and had a job as a child, a teen during the Depression, and as a *gasp* wife in the 50s and 60s. No one can be blamed for her circumstances. That was her lot in life. She married a poor miner, who was later a firefighter, had children, and loved and was loved by her big family.

Mrs. Merl I'm sorry if you are not at a place in your life right now where you get to stay home and have kids, but none of your issues are related to or are the fault of feminism.

Never could and still don't figure out how women didn't want men to tell them what to do but jumped when it was suggested to them you really need to get out of the home to be fulfilled.

And once again, it is not the opinion of the majority of average women and/or feminists that you must work to be fulfilled. Feminism started so that women could own property and not be owned like cattle, and furthered into other legal rights like the right to vote, reproduction rights, and has also been integral in creating laws for the protection of women from domestic violence, sexual abuse, and rape.

Sharpsburg, thank you for your posts.

The basis of feminism I believe we were discussing ≠ second, third, post, nu wave feminism.

Now, I am taking a page from C-dot and stepping away from this.

 

[Foofoogal]

some women are sorry they have been knocked off their pedastal and been forced to stand on their own 2 feet.

I sort of relish a pedestal and like the idea my daughter and granddaughters can have the same pedestal.
Now many have had that pedestal stolen by other women.
I know the difference when a man disrespects a woman and when they respect a woman. There is a big, big difference.

 

[cecil]

I think the second wave shot itself in the foot with its own rhetorical excesses -- I mean, I challenge anyone today to read somebody like Mary Daly with a straight face. That sort of stuff turned the movement into a parody of itself, and to me, anyway, wasted a lot of time and energy that should have been spent on more practical and productive things that related to the real lives of real women. Never mind about burning your damn bra, do something about the lack of safety guards on the machines women are running at the t-shirt factory.

It did indeed! A good cause and good ideas that have been blighted by rhetoric. As a result, a movement becomes a laughing stock, no matter how important it is. As an aside I believe that the same could be said about the animal rights movement at the moment.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's an unfortunate truth, alas, that given the opportunity the clowns will take over the circus every time.

(And because I'm the ringmaster, I am now going to edit things a bit. I won't close the thread, so if anyone wants to continue the discussion, phrases like "stupid,""ridiculous," "crapola," "BS" and the like will not be used. Discuss the issues rationally, and keep the schoolyard rhetoric out of it.)

 

[Lady Day]

I had to take a break for life...

So.....you have no definition? Just an emotional response to a word you have associated with something, but you cant define what?

what exactly is your definition of Feminism
LD

You asked this and I told you.

They projected their imaginations on families and women that did not understand the outcome of these imaginations and harm they would entail.
I find it appaulling a moderator would address me like this.

LizzieMaine has been trying to help me get my point across but no one is listening.

I had to take a brake for life too, so I have a lot to read, but this stuck out to me.
"They" implies a noun, which is a person place or thing. This in no way tells me your definition of 'feminism' only your feeling toward someones actions. I want to know your your definition of the word is, something which, from the post that I quoted, you have still not been able to site.

Now I have a lot of reading to do in this thread, and you may have inadvertently explained your definition of it, but from this post I find it astonishing that you are angry with me for asking you to clearly define your point of view, something most people often welcome. I was not badgering, complaining, or being flippant. I was asking a question you had not answered, twice.

Now, back to reading.
LD

 

[Lady Day]

Life circumstances aside....

The possibility of choice now exists, where it was once not a -right- that we had.

I still say the -right- to have this choice (whether or not your personal circumstances allow a particular option) is a precious one and not to be thought of as anything less.

Just because you cannot manage to go to vote in an election due to life circumstances does not mean you have lost your right to vote.

So this choice of the ability to work or not work.....does not go away just because any one of us in not currently in a particular position to take advantage of it.

Sadly there will always be those of us who in effect do not have the ability to exercise this right to chose, but it does not mean our right was -taken away- by others....

unless you really want to start the whole 'the man is out to get me' argument....

Very well said. Having choice and taking advantage of that choice is the crux of it.

LD

 

[analiebe]

A few bitter women started a whole movement because they hated men.

i think a little more credit is due the women in each wave of the feminist movement foofoo - to think that their drive was simply due to "man-hating" is doing them a great disservice indeed

 

[Lady Day]

Well, to be fair, I think the women Foofoo was criticising were the militant second-wavers of the '70s. Agree with them or disagree, I think it's safe to say that women were voting in the US for at least few decades before those particular feminists were born. And there *were* considerable ideological differences between the first-wavers and the second-wavers, especially the more extreme types -- it's quite possible to agree with everything the first wave accomplished without necessarily agreeing with everything the second wave said or did. Underneath the rhetoric going on here, there's worthwhile points for discussion. We could do with less "Stupid" and "Crapola" and more listening to each other.

Then why didnt you say this from jump, Foofoo?
Your beef appears to be with a specific facet of the later feminist movement (which for more or less I might agree with you), but to blanket the entire movement with words of 'stupid' and 'crazy' only tells me you couldnt define exactly what you dont like because you dont have enough knowledge about it.

OK.
**all caught up now good discussion ladies**

LD

 

[Foofoogal]

one does not have to be at a train wreck to see the outcome.

 

[cherry lips]

 

[Amy Jeanne]

I hear you. I worked in a factory printing t-shirts for a while, and it's the only job I've ever had I walked out on. Pretty near killed me, and I was only 24 years old. But it was the same kind of thing -- you take the work you can get because there isn't anything else.

My mother is very bitter to this day because she didn't get to live the traditional-housewife life -- she got married right out of high school expecting everything to work out like in the movies, but it turned out my father's idea of taking responsibility was to volunteer to rack up the next game down at the poolroom. So there wasn't much choice for her, and she feels like she got cheated out of everything she should have had.
She raised me to have very low expectations, as a result, and I've had to fight against that mindset ever since.

I think when you come from that kind of background, it makes it very difficult to really relate to lot of 60s-70s era feminist thought -- because it simply isn't relevant to the kinds of lives we've lived. To me, oppression wasn't about men, it was about getting up at 3am to go to a job I hated.

I don't know how I survived 10 years in that factory, to be honest. I cried every single day the last 2 years I was there. I had to go out on sick leave to find a new job (working 12 hour swingshifts, 6 days a week WASN'T ideal when looking for new work!) You are correct -- those 10 years were oppression x 1000!

None of my recent ancestors were housewives -- they ALL worked in factories! ALL OF THEM! That was all we had in our area. I'm working class through-and-through! My dad's mother worked in factories all throughout the 30s and 40s. I have letters from her to my grandfather who had to take a job in Illinois -- she was a very unhappy and tired woman. She probably scoffed at Rosie.

My family also encouraged me to have low expectations. We ALL worked in a factory, why should *I* be any different? I'm only now just beginning college at 34 (on my own dime, too!) Before this, I just didn't think there was any point because I was destined to be a factory worker forever. My family were actually against me "wasting my money" on college!! I'm currently fighting this battle and it's so hard. I've been out of factories since 2004, but sometimes my expectations still linger on the "What's the point?" level when I try to better myself.

I still kind of feel a bit of shame when I think of my roots. When I hear college-educated 20-somethings telling *me* how it is it just brings me down. I'm so glad they don't have to go through what I did -- I maybe even feel a bit of jealousy! Talking to people like you, Lizzie, is really comforting. We're the real feminists, I think! We just do what we have to do and get on with it.