Roelofs Hats?

[rlk]

Henry Roelofs Obit.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NR...Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Guyer roelofs co.&f=false

 

[cybergentleman]

possibilities

i was thinking about this:

is there any chance that this hat is a refurb of an old hat, or is a repro?

...or did stetson acquire them and produce hats later under the roelof name as a special wing of stetson...i forget the modern examples, but you folks know what i mean.

i just checked Pennsylvania historical society and philly free library website..nothing comes up on their search which is weird. the historical soceity found me the genealogical record of th efamily..but who knows who that refers to exactly.

so no leads yet

 

[rlk]

Roelof Derby that didn't sell Oct. 3.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...=10&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_fvi=1&_rdc=1#ht_655wt_941

 

[rlk]

i was thinking about this:

is there any chance that this hat is a refurb of an old hat, or is a repro?

...or did stetson acquire them and produce hats later under the roelof name as a special wing of stetson...i forget the modern examples, but you folks know what i mean.

i just checked Pennsylvania historical society and philly free library website..nothing comes up on their search which is weird. the historical soceity found me the genealogical record of th efamily..but who knows who that refers to exactly.

so no leads yet

Strangely there are no Trademark listings for Guyer or Roelofs.

 

[cybergentleman]

think this sums it up

http://boards.ancestry.myfamily.com/surnames.roelofs/4.6/mb.ashx

she writes:

"As I have been informed, there are many Roelofs' in Rotterdam (or there were at one time). It is a rather unusual Dutch name and it does not have Jewish origins. There are people with similar names in the North Sea Islands and in Norway, i.e.: Roeloff, Roelofsz, Roelofz, Roelofson, etc. I suspect that the seafaring peoples came South to Rotterdam and settled there. There are Roelofs' scattered over the United States, with the largest concentrations living in Michigan and Minnesota, as far as I am able to determine. My family were merchants and shippers who settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania in the mid-to-late 19th century. Many were landscape painters, as well. My great-great uncle, Willem Roelofs, was a renowned 19th century painter in Holland. Arthur Roelofs, my great-grandfather, shared ownership of a hat manufacturing company in Philadelphia that was absorbed by the Stetson Hat Company when his brother married Catherine Stetson. I have a watercolor hanging in my dining room that is signed by him and dated 1898.
I hope this trivia helps.
Barb Roelofs"



so how old is that hat? well, the next question is whether stetson manufactured hats under the roelofs brand as a subdivision of stetson at some point?

 

[rlk]

http://boards.ancestry.myfamily.com/surnames.roelofs/4.6/mb.ashx

she writes:

"As I have been informed, there are many Roelofs' in Rotterdam (or there were at one time). It is a rather unusual Dutch name and it does not have Jewish origins. There are people with similar names in the North Sea Islands and in Norway, i.e.: Roeloff, Roelofsz, Roelofz, Roelofson, etc. I suspect that the seafaring peoples came South to Rotterdam and settled there. There are Roelofs' scattered over the United States, with the largest concentrations living in Michigan and Minnesota, as far as I am able to determine. My family were merchants and shippers who settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania in the mid-to-late 19th century. Many were landscape painters, as well. My great-great uncle, Willem Roelofs, was a renowned 19th century painter in Holland. Arthur Roelofs, my great-grandfather, shared ownership of a hat manufacturing company in Philadelphia that was absorbed by the Stetson Hat Company when his brother married Catherine Stetson. I have a watercolor hanging in my dining room that is signed by him and dated 1898.
I hope this trivia helps.
Barb Roelofs"



so how old is that hat? well, the next question is whether stetson manufactured hats under the roelofs brand as a subdivision of stetson at some point?

This info is contradicted by records of the time(Guyer-Roelofs Co. of 1914). Also,Henry H. Roelofs married Wilhelmina Stetson in 1872 and didn't start his company until 1890. Stetson also seems to have trademarked their takeover acquisitions(Mallory, Emerson etc.)and everything else and nothing for Roelofs.

More on Henry and his brothers:
The parents of Samuel A. Roelofs were married in 1848 and they had
eleven children born to them, as follows: Henry H., Samuel A., Anthony,
Annie and William, who both died young; Richard, Maud, who died young;
John, Arthur, Landis and Bertha. Henry H. is engaged in business in
Philadelphia, as a manufacturer of hats. He married Minnie Stetson, who
is a daughter of the late John B. Stetson, the manufacturer of the
well-known Stetson hats. Anthony is in the employ of the Pennsylvania
Railroad Company and married Barbara Butler of Hollidaysburg, Blair
County. Richard, residing at Altoona, is an employe of the Pennsylvania
Railroad. He married Lydia Robinson of Altoona. John is a traveling
salesman, having his home in Philadelphia. Arthur resides in
Philadelphia and is a foreman in the hat factory of Henry H. Roelofs. He
married Viola Forepaugh.

 

[cybergentleman]

so where does this leave us now?

i don't understand how the court papers can say roelofs is one of the largest hat manufacturers [in the world] and yet no info is readily available. granted, there are a number of hatters who vanished over the years....but i would at lest expect something of that size to come up in philly history. bizarre.

anyone with lots of free time on their hands....or have access to a good archival source somewhere?

 

[Levallois]

I appreciate all the hard work and thought that has gone into researching Henry H. Roelofs Hat Manufacturing Co. by cybergentleman and rlk. I, too, find it curious that a company like this should, more or less, disappear (in terms of advertising, etc.) at approx. WWI. If the explanation is that they were bought by Guyer Hat Company and became a company called Guyer-Roelofs then you would think there would be a hat or two owned by the members of FL with this name imprinted on them or that there would be advertising in some magazine, etc. for their hats? If Guyer-Roelofs were bought soon after merging by another hat company then you would think there would have been a record of that purchase? The lack of tradmark listings for either company is also troubling.

I am dying to receive the hat. Hoping against hope that there is something under the sweat that clears this up. Thanks again!

John

 

[rlk]

I appreciate all the hard work and thought that has gone into researching Henry H. Roelofs Hat Manufacturing Co. by cybergentleman and rlk. I, too, find it curious that a company like this should, more or less, disappear (in terms of advertising, etc.) at approx. WWI. If the explanation is that they were bought by Guyer Hat Company and became a company called Guyer-Roelofs then you would think there would be a hat or two owned by the members of FL with this name imprinted on them or that there would be advertising in some magazine, etc. for their hats? If Guyer-Roelofs were bought soon after merging by another hat company then you would think there would have been a record of that purchase? The lack of tradmark listings for either company is also troubling.

I am dying to receive the hat. Hoping against hope that there is something under the sweat that clears this up. Thanks again!

John

The latest Guyer-Roelof hat mention I found was 1918 in an Iowa Yearbook ad for a store.

 

[Levallois]

Merry Christmas everyone! I have a minute here between opening presents with the kids this moring and cooking for the extended family this afternoon. Here are a couple of photos of the Roelofs. The first is a United Hatters, Cap, etc. tag (approx. 3/4-inch square) which, I believe, suggests a 1934-1954 manufacture date, correct? The reorder tag is second. The liner is sewn not glued. The only other thing on or under the sweat is the size tag which was shown in the original photos. So from this info. what's the verdict? Is it closer to 1930s than 1950s? Are there any other photos that people would like to see that would make this less murky? By the by, the hat is a beauty - darker grey than the photos. Thanks!

 

[Dinerman]

i was thinking about this:

is there any chance that this hat is a refurb of an old hat, or is a repro?

No. A refurb would not have the stampings on the sweatband or that style liner, and if it were a refurb of a turn of the century hat, the style of the hat would be entirely different.

As far as a reproduction goes, reproduction hats just don't exist. Hats in the style of earlier eras, yes, but no one would be making a hat with a '30s embossed unreeded sweatband, reorder tags, blocking and liner in a later era to pass it off as an earlier hat. There would be no reason to, and the amount of effort required just wouldn't make sense.

Sometimes you'll see smaller shops using older components, old sweatbands and liners on more modern hats, as they simply did not do the same volume of business and it took longer to use up the components which they'd ordered.

Merry Christmas everyone! I have a minute here between opening presents with the kids this moring and cooking for the extended family this afternoon. Here are a couple of photos of the Roelofs. The first is a United Hatters, Cap, etc. tag (approx. 3/4-inch square) which, I believe, suggests a 1934-1954 manufacture date, correct? The reorder tag is second. The liner is sewn not glued. The only other thing on or under the sweat is the size tag which was shown in the original photos. So from this info. what's the verdict? Is it closer to 1930s than 1950s? Are there any other photos that people would like to see that would make this less murky? By the by, the hat is a beauty - darker grey than the photos. Thanks!

I'd still say late '30s/ early '40s, and in amazing condition at that.

 

[rlk]

Sometimes you'll see smaller shops using older components, old sweatbands and liners on more modern hats, as they simply did not do the same volume of business and it took longer to use up the components which they'd ordered.



I'd still say late '30s/ early '40s, and in amazing condition at that.

This seems the only possible explanation. I guess it was put into a sealed chamber after assembly.

 

[Levallois]

The hat could have been made with old components and then put away as it is pristine-unworn. Almost too nice to wear . . . almost.

 

[cybergentleman]

thought

speaking of time capsules... philly was a much more busy city in past. i was just thinking that maybe after the merger of stetson and roelofs they had left over inventory...

A) the inventory was used at a location elsewhere to make the hat. meaning that a local hatter put it together. it seems reasonable that dietz hats for example in philly back in the day could assemble hats for ppl- why not?

B) there was some kind of carry over of the name. why don't we see advertising for it though? that i don't know and find very weird.

C) Did roleofs maybe outsource their manufacturing to another company, but use only their name?....but again there should be some record of this i would think....especially given how large this company allegedly was- where are the other roelof's hats!!!


I'm still very curious about this one- especially from the historical record aspect.

 

[rlk]

speaking of time capsules... philly was a much more busy city in past. i was just thinking that maybe after the merger of stetson and roelofs they had left over inventory...

As stated in a number of historical records above, Stetson and Roelofs only merged in the bedroom(1872 Marriage), the two manufacturers did not.

 

[cybergentleman]

yes true

...but i cant find any record of roelofs in philly.

i haven't really looked into this, but if this was a marriage thing, maybe a merger of sorts just happened over the long term eventually giving way to the more dominant stetson name w/o any legal issues.

was roelofs a public company? if not, then what i am proposing could be possible no?

excuse my ignorance and hypothesizing if i am totally off base here.

 

[Dinerman]

There were a lot of hatters over the past 100 years, (with slogans like, "worn everywhere") and in many circumstances, without considerable research in local records and newspaper archives, their product is their only record.

Though Roelofs was apparently a large company at one point, with the decline in hat wearing leading up to the 1930s and 1940s, it's possible that they shrunk in size.

As far as older materials being used, I've seen early 1950s dated hats that had it not been for the date, would almost pass for late '30s, but as I said, those have all been from smaller manufacturers, and there is generally a detail which gives it away- a newer style liner with an older style sweat, a newer style size tag, reorder tag, a newer sweat with an older style liner.

I don't see any such telltale details here. That's not to say that it's impossible that it was made in the later '40s or early '50s, but what I'm seeing looks late '30s/early '40s to me. And not late '30s/early '40s using bits and pieces from hats from the 1910's. No- late '30s using a late '30s sweatband, liner, and reorder tags, blocked in a style common in that timeframe.

And we know that in the right conditions, hats from all ages can survive in incredible condition, provided you're lucky enough.

 

[cybergentleman]

history

do we know any family history of this hat?

who sold it exactly, how the seller got hold of it and when etc?

also location may be helpful as well, and i dont mean the seller's location, i mean from where he obtained it.

..what i may do is try to find old maps of philly (online somehow) and see when the address changes.

currently there is no factory building located at 12th and brown and olive streets. in fact olive street, seems to be missing. inevitably at some point the location of roelofs underwent some changes so if i can pinpoint when that occured we may have a better idea of the time frame here, since there is nothing else to work on.

granted i do not have all the time in the world..so this may be on the back burner for a bit.

merry christmas, belated hanukka and happy forthcoming new years.

 

[rlk]

John Hanson Meader

Born 1872, treasurer of Guyer Roelofs Co. formerly Secretary and Superintendant of Guyer Hat Co.
From a biographical Report in a book of Harvard Class of 1895
"...1911 Occupation- Manufacturer of Men's Hats
Address(home) 188 Hildale Rd. Lansdowne, PA.
(business) 12th and Brown Sts. Philadelphia, PA.
In the fall of 1895 I entered the employ of the Guyer Hat Co. manufacturers of men's soft and derby hats. Almost a year later I obtained some interest in the company becoming its Secretary.
In September, 1906, I became its Treasurer. On account of hard labor conditions I moved my business in 1908 to Philadelphia, and in 1914 bought out a competitor forming the Guyer-Roelofs Co. of which I am Treasurer...

 

[Levallois]

I got a reply back from the seller and she acquired it in Boston, MA but knows nothing else about it. Very frustrating.

John