Return of the Broad Brimmed Hat

[Feraud]

This ain't court and most here are not experts..

 

[fmw]

It is the court of public opinion and expertise is not required to form and have an opinion. I, like everyone else, have opinions about nearly everything and yet I have expertise about very little. That's just human nature. We all do it.

 

[John in Covina]

I'd like to get a reading on the whole opinion as fact versus fact as opinion.

My opinion is that fur felt hats are a higher quality than wool felt hats. The reason I think so is that a variety of postings indicate in general a wool felt hat has a limited lifespan. One can usually get a fur felt hat cleaned and re-blocked but it appears that one either shouldn't or can't do the same for wool felt. In most cases the indication is a fur felt hat will usually have the longer lifespan.

Now some people will have a wool felt that gives a long span of use, and a wool felt can be a good value but it seems to be generally accepted that fur felt is better because of a variety of reasons.

Is this simply opinion?
Is it an opinion without merit or value?
Is it designed to create an elitist ideal?
Is it deemed to be a put down of wool felt fans?
The question also includes if experience is to always or usually be dismissed as only anecdotal evidence because it is not scientific? (I figure that there is a sort of sliding scale on this.)

 

[Richard Warren]

A rather influential fellow named Cass Sunstein reportedly said:

“For most of what they believe that they know, human beings lack personal or direct information; they must rely on what other people think. In some domains, people suffer from a “crippled epistemology,” in the sense that they know very few things, and what they [do] know is [often] wrong” – Cass Sunstein

This seems to me to be the opposite of a self-stultifying statement, in that Mr. Sunstein appears to prove his own point by demonstrating an apparent ignorance of what the word "epistemology" means (its been a while since I studied philosophy in a strict sense, but I seem to remember that the word means, to the extent a particular person may be said to have one, a theory of knowledge, rather than the accuracy of a particular body of "knowledge" or adequacy of a particular set of sources of knowledge; but maybe I don't know this but only believe I do; who knows?). In any event the propensity or at least ability of people to believe in things that are not true is certainly real, and something probably only an academic would find remarkable in any way.

Opinions about hats however vehemently or even rudely expressed seem relatively harmless in comparison to many manifestations of the phenomenon, and perhaps should be forgiven even if misguided.

 

[RobFedoraField]

[huh] wow! I'll be the first to admit I skipped from the first to the last page because I assumed we were still talking about hats, but looks like I'll have to go back and catch up on the heated debate!

 

[fmw]

I think you are on solid ground opining that fur felt is better in probably every respect other than cost. One major reason is wool's tendency to shrink. While fur can also shrink it isn't in the same league with wool in that respect. It also appears true that fur hats last longer. Whether or not this has been studied scientifically or not, I don't know. Perhaps others do know. But we see fur hats that are decades old doing just fine and the same can't be said of wool hats. So I would say that it is more than opinion. I think you can say that fur felt is better as an observed fact except for cost, of course. No, it is not designed to create an elitist ideal or anything else. No, it doesn't put down wool hat wearers. It is just a fact. Wool may have the edge in price and value but that doesn't put down fur either.

 

[hatophile]

Rob---
See what you missed?:eeek:

 

[fmw]

A rather influential fellow named Cass Sunstein reportedly said:

“For most of what they believe that they know, human beings lack personal or direct information; they must rely on what other people think. In some domains, people suffer from a “crippled epistemology,” in the sense that they know very few things, and what they [do] know is [often] wrong” – Cass Sunstein

This seems to me to be the opposite of a self-stultifying statement, in that Mr. Sunstein appears to prove his own point by demonstrating an apparent ignorance of what the word "epistemology" means (its been a while since I studied philosophy in a strict sense, but I seem to remember that the word means, to the extent a particular person may be said to have one, a theory of knowledge, rather than the accuracy of a particular body of "knowledge" or adequacy of a particular set of sources of knowledge; but maybe I don't know this but only believe I do; who knows?). In any event the propensity or at least ability of people to believe in things that are not true is certainly real, and something probably only an academic would find remarkable in any way.

Opinions about hats however vehemently or even rudely expressed seem relatively harmless in comparison to many manifestations of the phenomenon, and perhaps should be forgiven even if misguided.

Since Sunstein is a law professor and not a philosopher, he can be excused for an inappropriate application of the word epistemology.

 

[John in Covina]

[huh] wow! I'll be the first to admit I skipped from the first to the last page because I assumed we were still talking about hats, but looks like I'll have to go back and catch up on the heated debate!

It has been pretty interesting. We moved from the article to opinions on likes and dislikes to having a split on put downs and elitism to how do people see things to philosophy.

 

[hatophile]

Should we start a thread for unpopular hat opinions? Just asking....

 

[Pompidou]

It has been pretty interesting. We moved from the article to opinions on likes and dislikes to having a split on put downs and elitism to how do people see things to philosophy.

This thread must've been the proverbial straw breaking the camel's back, because it's tame in the aspects that have been criticized in it compared to others. I've got no issues with anyone believing one style is better than another. The statements that typically make me want to start arguing are those talking about how poorly the average person dresses, how rude the average person is, how men these days are pretty much overgrown little boys, how lousy hipsters are, how awful the kids are these days, etc... None of that came up in this thread. There was a thread in Observation that featured a long list as to how pretty much everyone is welcome at The Fedora Lounge. I think that's a great thing, believe me. The thing is, it takes more than a list to make it so. If we want to grow, and there are many who'd like to see a return to the values valued here, we have to present ourselves as the sort of people others want to be around, and that's not accomplished by the sorts of conversations listed above. By all means, tout the virtues of being well dressed and behaving like a lady or gentleman. It could help people get ahead in life, say at job interviews and such. Definitely a good thing. Just recognize that it's possible to talk about being well dressed without calling the others slobs, and it's possible to talk about good manners without calling everyone else rude. It's not about whether such statements are accurate, but more, are they really how The Fedora Lounge wants to be seen by the rest of the world? Oddly enough, this thread had little to none of everything I was talking about, so I wouldn't have picked this one to make a stand, but the debate is still worthwhile.

 

[Feraud]

Should we start a thread for unpopular hat opinions? Just asking....

No, there are too many complaint threads as it is and they seem oddly popular..

 

[Andykev]

It has been pretty interesting. We moved from the article to opinions on likes and dislikes to having a split on put downs and elitism to how do people see things to philosophy.

I agree. We have some members who enter the discussion, toss a hand grenade, and then leave the room.

The Lounge is supposed to be a nice place for folks to come and express their opinions, learn new
things, and not feel like they are being personally attacked.

Saying "Red cars are the best looking" doesn't mean I am calling you stupid for driving a green one.

Gentle members: please keep this on track with the discussion of "Return of the Broad Brimmed Hat",
and not a debate on opinions.

 

[Lefty]

Saying "Red cars are the best looking" doesn't mean I am calling you stupid for driving a green one.

But if green car owners would educate themselves, they'd see that red cars are better. The impulsive purchase of poor quality colors by the average car buyer shows his ignorance. There is no possible way that, with further knowledge about green cars, anyone could possibly choose to buy a green car.

 

[laotou]

Green cars are ok, however, green motorcycles are bad luck,.. wait......what was the question?

 

[Andykev]

But if green car owners would educate themselves, they'd see that red cars are better. The impulsive purchase of poor quality colors by the average car buyer shows his ignorance. There is no possible way that, with further knowledge about green cars, anyone could possibly choose to buy a green car.

You know Lefty, I considered deleting your post. But I decided instead to leave it up, to prove my point.

Please, back on track. The class in abstract comments is over.

 

[John in Covina]

Please read the disclaimer

http://www.latimes.com/features/image/la-ig-hats-20110313,0,6801782.story

On the good side at least they are discussing the concept of brim size.

In the picture it looks like all of the hats have that modern tapered crown.

Here where the controversy comes in--- in the threads posted by all of the non-experts we have seen pictures and descriptions of vintage hats and recreations of vintage designs that have crowns that exhibit little or no taper. Do you consider taper to be a highly desirable feature or do you stay away from it.


Taper is not considered indicative of a bias related to any elitist attitudes based on socio-economics, age, religion, ethnicity, IQ or as a political statement.

I like little to no taper which is not to be considered to mean that those that do are in any way deficient.:eeek:

 

[1961MJS]

Taper is not considered indicative of a bias related to any elitist attitudes based on socio-economics, age, religion, ethnicity, IQ or as a political statement.

I like little to no taper which is not to be considered to mean that those that do are in any way deficient.:eeek:

Hi

Professor like voice [sonorous maybe?] Doctor Jones didn't wear hats with taper and neither should you...

Sorry couldn't help it.[huh]

 

[Chuck Bobuck]

The article sites young actor Robert Pattinson's image on the cover of Vanity Fair sporting a wide brimmed fedora. That is indeed a departure from the extra stingy brims normally worn by young people today.
http://socialitelife.com/enlargedim...-fair-march-2011-02282011-lead&postid=5677742

I don't mind stingy brims much. My dad was born in 1916 and I have a photo of him from around the 1940's in his wide brimmed fedora. When I was a little kid, I remember a wide brimmed fedora that sat on a shelf in the closet. He lived through the Depression and was a WWII vet, but I never saw him wear that wide brimmed hat. He dressed up everyday in a suit and tie and wore a shorter brimmed fur felt hat in the 50's through the 70's, usually with the little feather in the band. That's what my uncle, their friends and about every other adult male wore then. Think Tom Landry walking up and down the sidelines. That was the style of the day in an urban area, in my world at least.

I never heard him call his hat a fedora, bemoan taper, or complain that brim widths weren't what they used to be. Mens hats were rarely discussed, they just put them on their head and did their jobs and took care of their families. He continued to wear that style of hat until sometime in the 70's or 80's when he started wearing tweed trilby styled hats or flat caps. The only time I saw him wear a ball cap was when my uncle bought him one that claimed he was a WWII vet. That's the only hat my uncle ever wears today. My observation is that these greatest generation men came to prefer shorter brims for their functionality and appearance. Most of them just moved ahead with the times and forgot about fedoras completely. Brim size isn't so important to me. I wear a wider brim, but I have a soft spot for 'stingy brims', or as men used to call them... 'hats'.

 

[fmw]

Well that's certainly a nice looking stingy. My father was also born in 1916.