Return of the Broad Brimmed Hat

[alanfgag]

Is this the new thread where we talk about how great we are and how everyone else does it wrong?

I'm too shy and too much of a newbie to have said this, but I felt it while reading this thread.
I might be a closet card carrying iconoclast too...

 

[John in Covina]

You do your job well.

Your job is to put down everyone's opinions with some sort of high moral tone and combining statement of some sort of supposed ethical greatness.

Yet at the same time your finger pointing is exactly what you accuse us of doing.

You lecture others by indulging in what you spend all of the time showing great distain for.

 

[fmw]

I will define fedora. Anyone not wearing what I consider a fedora is part of a small group whose tastes are insignificant and likely to be short-lived.

That was an embellishment. His only point was that he doesn't consider stingy brims as meeting his definition of a fedora. I think he's wrong but that's his opinion. He also has a dislike for stingy brims and that is a matter of personal preference. It should be OK for him to state his preference.

Indeed, even a brimmed hat will not pass my level of scrutiny. Stingy brims are no better than baseball caps, which we all know to be evil.

The statement quoted said nothing about baseball caps. He simply holds the same opinion about stingy brims as the writer of the earlier post.

These are "starter" hats. They are for people who don't know any better, but may become enlightened if they are willing to learn more from people like us.

He said they are starter hats. He made no statement about how or where a cheap fedora wearer would learn more.

Ornamentation is for the flashy kids of this new generation and is nothing like the dripping excess of art deco or art nouveau.

Whatever you say. He didn't say that. He said the average person is not knowledgable about hats. I think he's right.

The average guy is impulsive and uneducated. Thus, he makes poor decisions and fails to learn from them. I am enlightened.

That's a good thing. The poster, of course, claimed no such enlightenment.

I've having difficulty defining when you may wear your cap, but I'll get back to you.

His point was that ball caps are, in his opinion, more popular and used more often than he would wish. It's another statement of preference. Your interpretation seems unfair.

This is possibly the ultimate pot/kettle situation.

Why? He can't express an opinion about journalists?

I think discussion forums like this are more interesting when the members engage in debate. I consider debate a good thing. On the other hand, I don't view personal attacks as a good thing and you certainly engaged in personal attacks from perspective. Just an opinion, of course. A matter of personal preference.

 

[John in Covina]

Most people consider life a learning experience as time progresses you learn and grow. This usually equates to with age comes wisdom. Also with age comes a whole lot of learning what one likes and what one doesn't like. It also leads to having insights and experiences that others may not have. This all adds up to having opinions.

The concept that an opinion has no value if it doesn't echo ones own opinion is not what I, and I think, most others are saying here. Remember, I am not making rules that are to be enforced about hats nor are any others. People posting here are expressing opinions as to what we each prefer over what others might do.

I do feel that journalism is weak and others pointed out that the article was a rehash of the most common concepts. To me it seemed "glib" and without much substance. The great information that has been posted here on the Lounge about hats and the fact (is) that many of us have seen a number of threads linking to similar articles. We have talked about those and this one did not seem to offer very much to break out of the mold and go further than the usual. When one sees the same type and depth of writing on a subject that receives as much discussion as fedoras do here there is some disappointment that it didn't introduce anything that really adds insight beyond some sense of novelty.

 

[John in Covina]

Ornamentation is for the flashy kids of this new generation and is nothing like the dripping excess of art deco or art nouveau.

I got to ask here please expound on the concept that art deco is excessive. I am not really getting the jist of what you're saying here.

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

The thing that most here seem to forget we are less than .0025 of the current hat buy public. Our dismissal of today's hats for hats that are 60 to 70 years old doesn't make us important to anyone in the current manufacturing business. They try to please us here an we complain about it witness the Stetson situation currently. It's just a hat. I love hats you love hats let's just try to help others get to the point where even want to wear a Fedora. I have ball cap wearing co workers asking about them from wearing a totally rebuilt Open Road that Clean A Hat did a fantasic job in rebuilding. These ball cap wearing guys are starting to see it is cool to where a good hat.

 

[Tiller]

So the general complaint about this thread is that some people made their opinions known that they don't enjoy stingy brim fedora hats, others think that most modern cloth and paper straw stingy hats aren't much to write home over, and that in general people here in the lounge know more about real fedora hats (the fur felt variety that people really don't like besides us I guess) then others. What horrors!

So basically don't share your opinion, and if you dare hold an opinion that I don't consider valuable shut your mouth, because others in this thread know better!

Quality! Ha there are to few of us for anyone to really give a damn about our opinions! Your a bunch of young and old fools to think anyone gives a damn about quality!

Those cloth and paper straw hats are great on their own, and how DARE you pretend that your custom made Art Fawcett, vintage 1942 Stetson, or your modern Stetson is better!

You think the average Lounger knows more? So what! We don't amount to a hill a beans in this world so shut your mouth! Stop pretending your opinion matters, it's the average kid who is going to control the market, so shut your mouth about them! Why do you think your opinion matters? If it did more people would act like you, but they don't do they so just stop it!

Anyone who dares to give advice to anyone else regarding style or dress most be some kind of Nazi. Who do you think you are? Don't you dare claim someone dressed in a sweatpants, a sweatshirt, and a cloth stringy brim fedora, dresses any worse then someone who dresses like Fred Astaire! Because guess what the person dressed like Astaire is the one who looks bad now a days! So don't you just feel stupid!

If this is going to happen every time someone makes an honest opinion on a subject that they get shot down by the overly sensitive, what exactly is the point of having these forums? I was under the impression that this forum was started by a man who wanted to sell a few magazines for people who loved the style and culture of the Golden Age. Which I assumed meant that people would be discussing styles of that age and would compare it to the style of today. So why exactly are people flipping out about people complaining about say how someone may look better with a nice felt fedora on well wearing a suit instead of a ball cap? Is it because they are taking a stand? Or simply because they are phrasing it in such a way that you aren't comfortable with it, so it most be a bad opinion.

I didn't see anyone being attacked. I saw products being attacked. Is that a sin now? I've seen individuals making their opinions known about how they disprove of a certain style/ contemporary standards. Is that a sin now? I also saw someone bring up the old debate about what the definition of a fedora was. Now I wasn't here when this site was first created, but before I joined I enjoyed reading the "archives" (for a lack of a better term) and I recall people debating that issue before as well. Is this now a sin?

If so perhaps someone can help this poor good old boy, and explain to me what exactly are we suppose to be talking about now, since I seem to be quite confused about what is and is not allowed here anymore.

For the record though I have a few stingy brimmed hats that I wear fairly often. Mostly fur felt. Although my "everyday" summer hat is one of those new paper straw stingy hat's that some people don't like. Yet for some strange reason I didn't feel like I was being personally insulted when others wrote about their dislike of such hats. I guess I'm more callous the even I thought I was.

 

[Pompidou]

I think, and I actually haven't argued on this thread, that the issue is, or should be, the perception of TFL to the outside world. I think it's great to tout the values of a good suit and a good hat, all that sort of thing. I think what needs to be avoided is self back patting and the condemnation of today's average Joe. We don't want to be seen as elitist, but rather, welcoming. We need to entice moderates rather than scare them off. I don't think this thread was particularly noteworthy in those regards. I like The Fedora Lounge quite a bit, but I do cringe now and then when things get too self congratulatory. It's a natural consequence of being a tight nit group so different from mainstream. A problem I'm trying to work on is feeling the need to argue every time I come across such an instance - ensuring I maintain a good balance of positive and negative posts, as it was getting lopsided for a while. Those're my two cents.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I see nothing wrong with the cheapo stingies, myself. I have a Docker's one that I bought because I really liked the houndstooth pattern. It's a good beater for yard work, etc.

 

[The Good]

I think, and I actually haven't argued on this thread, that the issue is, or should be, the perception of TFL to the outside world. I think it's great to tout the values of a good suit and a good hat, all that sort of thing. I think what needs to be avoided is self back patting and the condemnation of today's average Joe. We don't want to be seen as elitist, but rather, welcoming. We need to entice moderates rather than scare them off. I don't think this thread was particularly noteworthy in those regards. I like The Fedora Lounge quite a bit, but I do cringe now and then when things get too self congratulatory. It's a natural consequence of being a tight nit group so different from mainstream. A problem I'm trying to work on is feeling the need to argue every time I come across such an instance - ensuring I maintain a good balance of positive and negative posts, as it was getting lopsided for a while. Those're my two cents.

Absolutely, Pompidou. I think it's cool that there are more people taking up felt hats, and while it may be disappointing that they aren't any more prevalent than they are now in the general populace, people who don't wear them shouldn't be looked down upon as some sort of "enemy," or something. Let's welcome all those that are interested in the hats and retro styles so often discussed here. There's a style for everyone.

 

[facade]

In reality the average Joe is better off with a cheap hat. The average viewer is unable to distinguish and appreciate the difference between a $450 custom hat and a $30-$150 off the rack hat. So spending an extra $300-400 nets the average Joe nothing.

We here are enthusiasts and collectors so we are willing to spend more for nicer hats. To disparrage anyone for not participating in our frivalous hobby is silly. We are the one's spending ridiculous amounts of money for little more then the self-satisfaction of owning really nice hats.

 

[Mr Vim]

You know it's funny, but I notice that after the Adjustment Bureau came out, everyone around Juneau thinks I am dressing like them, except I've been wearing fedoras for years! Ah well.

Anybody else notice Terrance Stamp's hat does have a wider brim than the other fellas? I think it may be because he is the older, enforcer type. I am not saying his hat is a wide brim, because it seems everyone has their own opinion on what that is, but rather just wider.

 

[scottyrocks]

I believe Lefty's initial protest was right on the spot. Its not what people say that is an issue. Its how it is said. It happens around here quite often.

Having an opinion is one thing. Stating it is another. Both are normal. But, as alan said, the feel, though, is what prompted, in my mind, as well, what Lefty expressed. Sometimes the air of superiority around here is palpable. And then when its pointed out, the people who were doing it get up in arms when its pointed out, and accuse the accuser of said same, even though it was done that way intentionally to make a point.

I dont like a lot of things. But I try not to put them, or the people who do like them, down. If I do, and am called out on it, I examine what I have done, and try to make amends where possible, and not get all defensive. It doesnt always work, but hey, I try.

 

[fmw]

Scotty, that's good. The problem is that whenever anybody states an opinion that they don't like something, they are putting down that something. It is part of the definition of not liking something. Certainly the way something is said affects people's reaction to the stated opinion, but I don't think there is any way of getting around the put down. "I don't like stingy brims" doesn't necessarily say that people who do like stingy brims are cretins.

Personally, I didn't get a feeling the posters were putting anybody down until I got to Lefty's sarcastic post. They were putting products down by stating their dislike of them. They weren't attacking people. You could interpret what they said as a put down of people but it would be an interpretation at best or a "feeling" as some have put it. You can't debate feelings, only opinions.

 

[W4ASZ]

You know it's funny, but I notice that after the Adjustment Bureau came out, everyone around Juneau thinks I am dressing like them, except I've been wearing fedoras for years! Ah well...

If I may suggest, tell them : "We have worn these for many years." Then, of course, decline to elaborate on the nature and identity of "we". :eeek: :eeek: :eeek:

:cool2:

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

First of all, W4ASV is a bad, bad boy. Great idea.

I don't wear stingy brims for a LOT of reasons: 1. I started wearing brimmed hats because I got the back of my ears toasted at a noon baseball game prompting me to go see Hatman Jack; 2. Personally, I think I look better in a 2.75 inch or larger brim; 3. Doctor Jones didn't wear stingy brims; and 4. My father quit wearing fedoras when they went to stingy brims, and his mother-in-law made fun of him in them.

Having said that I don't like them, a 30 year old Atlanta native I work with looks good in his, but then his aren't like the ones in the "Adjustment bureau".

Later Y'all

 

[John in Covina]

Remember:
Being "judgmental" is bad unless you're being judgmental about other people being judgmental, that shows good judgment.

 

[Feraud]

Having an opinion is one thing. Stating it is another.

Even worse is the opinion put forth as fact.

 

[John in Covina]

I "put down" the writer of the article for it's content, commented "Put down" on what I see is a downward trend in journalism and made some statements indicating that generally youthful people are not thoughtful in many of their purchases another "put down."

Those might be considered a "put downs" but I also happen to believe that they are generally true.

Some people here have been taught a version of life view that places great weight on a twisted version of egaliterianism. The concept of equality gets taken to a point past where it affects the ability to express opinion or even facts. The egalitarianism backlash against elitism has gotten to the point where a discussion about quality, suitability and knowing about a subject and then having an opinion is taken as elitism and as put downs.

According to some people here if I were to say that a Stradivarius violin is one of the best violins in the world, I have now put down every thing else. If I were to say giving a Stradivarius to a beginner is a waste of a good instrument some people here would get upset.

What is taken as a given thing as to the quality and value of the Violin, most experts would say that is true, some may mention other notable makers for comparison. The quality and value of the Stradivarius has a number of quantifiable and definable parameters. There are other experts that will say in the hands of a highly skilled violinist a Stradivarius will sound really good, but a number of those violinists will tell you that the Stradivarius violins are a bit more difficult to play, it takes that great skill to have them sound warm and sweet as other violins, a put down of players not of the skill level needed. Here we have moved to opinion, and in fact expert opinion, but there are people that would even consider that a Put Down of Stradivarius violins!

The problem we have is that we all have different levels of "SENSITIVITY" and if the most sensitive control the discussion then the discussion ceases. It is one thing to keep the conversation civil and not become coarse with swearing or name calling. But at a certain point the control of the conversation moves to the non-truth portion as in lies by omission, and then on to only some sort of rah-rah pep rally. It ceases to be discussion.

Are some people sensitive to the erudite and the use of big words. We see a certain acerbic wit creeps into the descriptions where people use parody, satire and otherwise lampoon things. Does it mean there needs to be a rule that you are not allowed to write above a 5th grade level? I like to try to use analogies and hyperbole to demonstrate a point does that make people uncomfortable?

When ever you have opinions, you will have disagreement that is one of the natures of having opinions and discussions. The same with taste in fashions, foods and all sorts of other things. People have different tastes in things. In another thread I mentioned sushi, some of you here would be horrified (gasp - oh,my!) to read the sushi put downs that others wrote. Actually what I saw was opinions as to not liking sushi using humor and analogies to express their dislike. All I can say is what we went through here is nothing compared to what happens else where. Even Lefty's post putting down all of the put downs was much more polite and actually really well written then a lot of what takes place on the web.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Oh by the way does anyone else here think the hats in the picture all show a lot of taper?

 

[John in Covina]

Even worse is the opinion put forth as fact.

Even in court there is a thing called expert opinion.