Retro-extremists? What are we called?

[John in Covina]

related to ones 'extremism' and inability to deal with 'normal culture'

Should it be part of a non-descrimination suit or covered by health insurance!

 

[LizzieMaine]

my veer is at least as related to the issue as any of the veers...

More so than most, actually. As side discussions go, it's one of the most interesting, at least from my perspective.

 

[Dr Doran]

There is nothing wrong with having been a guest of NY State for a night, and I see nothing wrong with quitting a job because the music sucks -- I think it is a beautiful aesthetic decision (as long as one can pay one's bills and does not require my taxes for his bankruptcy).

All we need here, folks, is, again, as has been pointed out:

1.) A base word.

2.) A modifier.

For the modifier,
a.) the total lifestylers could be called "extreme" or "fanatic" if they don't sound to negative -- I think they sound fine, but I'm an ex-punkrocker so of course I like words like that. But Lizzie might not like such a term and I respect that. So maybe "Total" is the right word. This category could encompass Rob/Forgotten Man, Jack Senator, obviously Miss Joeri whose entire apartment in Europe is all 1930s and whose time seems to be spent at historical events and whose actual employment is as a historical advisor for 1920s and Nazi occupation-era films, Lizzie Maine, perhaps Brooksie in Portland (not sure: I've hung out with her many times but never actually seen her house), and several kooks I know who don't go on the Lounge because of various things. I think that guy named Johnny Danger in L.A. who drives that 1920s car might be in this category. But I don't know him too well so I may be wrong. The punkrock equivalent of this category would be punks who go to jail for graffitti, who dislike classical music, who tattoo their face, have only highly fetishistic sex, and who have a hard time with regular people. (Please note that I am not insulting this group by saying these things; I almost tattooed my forehead once and I once listened to lots of Crass and Conflict records and felt this way, then I just ... changed.)

b.) second category can be for people who are not, well, fanatics, not extreme, not total. BUT THEY ARE OFTEN EXPERTS. THEY HAVE GREAT EXPERTISE IN e.g. THE CARS, MUSIC, FASHIONS, LITERATURE, HISTORY OF THE ERA. They love the Era but ... they are also pretty comfortable with the modern world. This category does not need a modifier. This could be a term for people like myself, probably FedoraGent/Jon Eugenio and I guess Tim Stookey in SF for those who know him, Julie Bergmans, Matt Deckard, Reetpleat, MK Himself, probably Carlisle Blues (although I don't really know you, mon ami, I'm guessing), certainly Nik/metropd, Heather/Miss Bella Hell. Lots and lots and lots of people who have been into vintage and dancing and collecting for years and years and years are in this category, and it is a perfectly good category to be in. The punk equivalent to this would be people who DEFINITELY DO NOT TATTOO THEIR FACE and don't go to jail and hold a regular job but have to wear long sleeved shirts. Fletch, I am not sure if you are in a.) or b.) as I do not know you; jamespowers, I actually do know you, but I am also not sure if you are in a.) or b.) I feel the same about my dear friend Sara/Miss 1929: I am not sure whether she would consider herself an a.) or a b.)

c.) The third category would be the people occasionally seen at events who don't really hang out in the scene, don't know much about it, but once in a while like to do it. Anyone who dresses up once in a while. Some of those people are doofuses, some are fine, many move to the "medium" level. The punk rock equivalent to this would be the cats whom I would occasionally see at punk shows in small groups, nodding their heads to the music and chewing gum, minding their own business and planning to own a business when they finished their business degree. Perfectly affable folks.

These terms would NOT be value judgments. Only descriptive categories. Contra Michel Foucault, it is actually possible to have descriptive categories without a secret schema of domination and Power behind them. So please no one get their knickers in a twist.

For the base word, "atavist" is too obscure for me, at present.

I fail to see the derogatoriness of "anachronist" in English. "Anachronist" sounds deliberate and I like that. "I am an anachronist" sounds like "I am doing this deliberately and fully, it is me, and I have a cultural programme for myself in mind." However, I will agree that "I am an anachronism" sounds a possibly apologetic and thus lame.

Here are my suggestions:

a.) Total Anachronist: Lizzie, Miss Joeri, etc.

b.) Anachronist: myself, Jon Eugenio, etc.

c.) Occasional anachronist: person who also does things that categories a.) and b.) would never do: the people you see once in a while at a dance who have a hat that looks like cardboard but at least they tried. I see people like this at the Sunday Night Speakeasy in Oakland. They make the effort and that's great. Some may get more into vintage, some may not, and it's all good. (Some of the girls at such events are really cute, too, so naturally I encourage them to look up to people more heavily into vintage as it is in my own best interest.) I once fit into this category in the early 1990s. I hung out at Club Deluxe in SF but I was really still a punkrocker and deeply into trip-hop so I was not ready to embrace, nor terribly interested in embracing, the vintage lifestyle at levels a.) or b.).

I'm just attempting to help Jack with what I think was his original idea for the thread ... and to also incorporate the viewpoints that I have read here. And, again, I have read every single post, and it took a long long time.

Does this make any sense?

 

[dhermann1]

Its germane to the overall discussion of -retro-extremists- because it came up that choices had been made involving employment etc...related to ones 'extremism' and inability to deal with 'normal culture'

I am aware that the original topic was 'which word'....but honestly its veered a dozen times since then.....

my veer is at least as related to the issue as any of the veers...

Gotcha.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Does this make any sense?

I see what you're getting at, but I'm still thinking there needs to be a word that could be used to distinguish motivation -- the idea of shading a single word with modifiers suggests we're all basically doing the same thing for the same reasons, it's just some of us do more of it than others, and after three days of discussion, I'm more convinced than ever that this isn't the case. See my example of the atavist vs. the performance artist as an illustration.

My big problem with anachronist, aside from the SCA link:

"I love your dress, are you in a play?"

"No, I'm an anachronist."

"Oh, you mean like Sacco and Vanzetti?"

Seriously, though, speaking for myself, I'm not especially interested in a term for use in casual conversation with the general public -- I'm more interested in a serious, easily-distinguished term that could work in a research setting -- "anachronist" sounds to me just too much like one of those weird bands my niece listens to to work in that context.

 

[vitanola]

I was not only referring to his situation......I have known of others who have made employment decisions based on such things as : "oh thats too far to drive to in my vintage car....." etc.....

So perhaps not 'generally'...much like there would not necessarily be anything else that you could say "100% of Atavists do ....."

But I still firmly believe...(and sorry if this makes me a judgmental wretch, I accept that it probably does)...that when you make an employment choice that negatively affects your life (and that negative is for you to decide...fine if you want to live on half the salary you could in order to be able to wear vintage stuff to work).....

You have bigger things to be worrying about then a name.....

In that sense its verging on the guys who -won't- go get a job because it would impinge on computer game time in their life.

It's avoidance of reality. And maybe its coated in a nicer 'olde timey' wrapper then the hard core gamer guys who never move from their chairs..

Those guys also feel a lack of commonality with 'culture' at large and would rather live in their pretend world online........same 'mental thing'...different manifestation.

In my case, my interests in the timers past seemed at odds with my training as an engineer. Now I had not up until recent years made any attempts at period dress, but otherwise my away-from-work time was spent entirely in period surroundings. After a couple of run-ins with unsympathetic supervisors back in the early 'eighties (the difficulty invariably was about my car, oddly enough) I decided that the best course was to strike out on my own. In business I was reasonably successful. I sold out and retired a decade ago, still a young man (though my investments have done poorly, and I must now supplement my slender means) I have always wanted to take my "anachronism" or "atavism" further, into dress, but have not until recent years gone beyond the daily wear of modified modern suits of clothes. In this the Lounge has been a useful resource, though it its focus is a bit modern for my personal taste.

Reading other's musings on this subject has been enlightening, as I had (oddly enough) never before given much thought to the ursprung of my , to coin a phrase "temporal dysphoria", for it has always been a major part of my personality. I recall an intense interest in old things in my pre-school years. I've never really understood it, but neither has it troubled me. The sense of alienation that others mention is not mine as much as is an irritation with the NOISE of the modern world.

 

[Foofoogal]

for the record pertaining to this thread.

When I said conservative I didn't mean politics at all.

I meant generally telling folks they can't or don't need a name for themselves. If they want a name, let them have a name.
Gee..:eusa_doh:

 

[Miss Neecerie]

I see what you're getting at, but I'm still thinking there needs to be a word that could be used to distinguish motivation -- the idea of shading a single word with modifiers suggests we're all basically doing the same thing for the same reasons, it's just some of us do more of it than others, and after three days of discussion, I'm more convinced than ever that this isn't the case. See my example of the atavist vs. the performance artist as an illustration.

My big problem with anachronist, aside from the SCA link:

"I love your dress, are you in a play?"

"No, I'm an anachronist."

"Oh, you mean like Sacco and Vanzetti?"

Seriously, though, speaking for myself, I'm not especially interested in a term for use in casual conversation with the general public -- I'm more interested in a serious, easily-distinguished term that could work in a research setting -- "anachronist" sounds to me just too much like one of those weird bands my niece listens to to work in that context.

Chronotransposer

One who substitues one time for another.

alas the 'poser' in there makes it less good..

so..

chronotransmogrifer

 

[Carlisle Blues]

This is what I don't understand. Does anyone really think that being totally alienated from the modern world, to the point of mental breakdown and near-clinical madness, is something to aspire to? This 'condition' has severely affected my life. (and here, I am going to admit - ADMIT - that this condition once landed me an overnight stay as a 'guest' of NY State). As I said, I just quit my job, because I couldn't stomach the modern music they were playing there. Damn, I wish I were normal, but certainly I can't change: not without years of therapy and perhaps the pills that NY was trying push on me.

Really, I'm baffled.

Regards,

Jack

I am beginning to get a better idea of where you are coming from. This person said it best :

we like what we like, we are what we are, and that's it. .

All I can add is to thine own self be true. If you are not comfortable with the way you are then seek appropriate measures and qualified personnel to assist you.

In any event I will send good thoughts your way...

 

[Dr Doran]

I see what you're getting at, but I'm still thinking there needs to be a word that could be used to distinguish motivation -- the idea of shading a single word with modifiers suggests we're all basically doing the same thing for the same reasons, it's just some of us do more of it than others, and after three days of discussion, I'm more convinced than ever that this isn't the case. See my example of the atavist vs. the performance artist as an illustration.

My big problem with anachronist, aside from the SCA link:

"I love your dress, are you in a play?"

"No, I'm an anachronist."

"Oh, you mean like Sacco and Vanzetti?"

Seriously, though, speaking for myself, I'm not especially interested in a term for use in casual conversation with the general public -- I'm more interested in a serious, easily-distinguished term that could work in a research setting -- "anachronist" sounds to me just too much like one of those weird bands my niece listens to to work in that context.

But you ARE like Sacco and Vanzetti, my dear. At least the era is basically right.

OK how about this then:

a.) Atavist
b.) Anachronist
c.) person who occasionally dresses vintage.

 

[Dr Doran]

Or, thinking of Vitanola's post:

a.) Total Periodist or Lifestyle Periodist
b.) Anachronist
c.) Occasional Weekend vintage dresser

 

[Dr Doran]

"I love your dress, are you in a play?"

"No, I'm an anachronist."

"Oh, you mean like Sacco and Vanzetti?"

And you think "atavist" would be better? "Oh, I see. You eat raw meat." If they even had the slightest idea of to what constellation of ideas the word referred.

"Anachronist" could be a delightful conversation starter. "No, I'm not an anarchist. I'm a royalist, actually. I'm an anachronist. I'm anachronistic." Said with a smile. A beautiful friendship is born.

Everyone should know that anachronistic means "out of the period."

 

[Undertow]

Well, I guess the engineer was driving the train in reverse because this wreck just keeps piling up. :eusa_doh:

So had you (Jack and Lizzie) decided on Atavist then? Can I throw Chronofidelis out in case anyone missed it? Is anyone still interested in the name itself?

Personally, I don't care if everyone wants to be a part of the Bucktoothed Camel Spiders, or the Broken-Nose Whale Fishers, or what have you. We're all part of the same community, after all. I'm not sure it matters if a subgroup of a subgroup wants to define their own parameters and frankly I'm disappointed so many of us have reacted adversely. Politics? How did that even get thrown into this mix? Religion? Holy Smokes! (...is all I have to say on that!)

This should have been a 2-3page thread about how to better describe a very particular subgroup. Why the animosity? Really folks, we're all rocking the same boat - just seems a few of us want different colored life jackets. No problem, easy peesy, I think. Honestly, if Jack and Lizzie (and the half dozen others) feel they’re a more refined, or maybe that’s not the word…how about, more specific group of Vintage folks, and they want to call themselves Club Footed Wizard Hats, by God, isn’t that okay? Do we need to call for a vote? Does everyone have to belong to every subgroup? We’re not getting merit badges here, are we? (my vest is shamefully empty, after all)

I will say I've noticed as board membership has swollen, so has animosity. Growing pains, that's all. Let me say I’m very fortunate to have this community, so easily accessible. I think having started so humbly, and with so few members, and moreover with such a narrow focus of tastes, it is inevitable for chaff to occasionally mix with wheat. I just hope we can weed the bad apples out and enjoy coke [*edit "A coke", this isn't the 70's-80's thread after all!] together if we meet in public.

Anyhow, if anyone needs me, I’ve gone fishin’. And if anyone wants to be part of that group as well, come as you are, but stop your complaining; you’ll scare off the fish!

(p.s. Bravo Lizzie and Jack for fielding this with cool heads and tender consideration without insulting intelligence. There are many reasons this community works so well, and you’re both two of them. Cheers! :eusa_clap )

 

[LizzieMaine]

But you ARE like Sacco and Vanzetti, my dear.

Well, not since I bleached my moustache.

OK how about this then:

a.) Atavist
b.) Anachronist
c.) person who occasionally dresses vintage.

That pretty much fits, actually. I have to say I kind of like "Periodist." Or maybe that works for someone who only does vintage once a month.

 

[Undertow]

Oh, and on a side note (haha, just as this entire thread has been a side note)

fftopic:

I WISH with all my heart cars still had window vents. I also drive with no AC (not a single car I've owned has ever had functioning AC) and those window vents were the bees' knees!

 

[Dr Doran]

That pretty much fits, actually. I have to say I kind of like "Periodist." Or maybe that works for someone who only does vintage once a month.

lol lol

 

[JimWagner]

so..

chronotransmogrifer

Now that sounds like something a steampunk would build.

I might have plans for one around here somewhere.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Everyone should know that anachronistic means "out of the period."

Key would there being 'should'.


Most people who have any contact with the word at all.....think it means 'Those crazy Renaissance folks playing with swords'



Or maybe that's just everywhere but Berkeley...

 

[Dr Doran]

Objections:

a.) "Lifestyle Periodist" may sound too menstrual
"Atavist" sounds too weird
"Lifestyle Atavist" sounds too omophagist (raw meat eating) or else too S&M -- fine for some of us who also have a profile on fetlife.com (now I know that all of you are going to look for mine goddamit), but not for others


b.) "Anachronist" sounds vaguely like "anarchist" and like you might be a sword wielding SCA dork, I mean member.
OBJECTIONS OVERRULED: Anarchist is a potentially delightful mis-hearing whose correction can lead to the beginning of a beautiful friendship, as Bogart would say.
The SCA connexion is nixed as we do not wear chain mail.

c.) Occasional/weekend vintage dresser has no objections at all.

 

[Feraud]

While I agree with the connotations associated with the above terms I have to ask who are we creating the term for?
Should we care that Atavist will remind people of a James Cameron movie or Anachronist sounds like a bibilical reference?

Just puttin' it out there..