Retro-extremists? What are we called?

[Senator Jack]

Sister Mary Jacqueline gettin' all penguin on us.

Well, that's what happens when the teacher leaves fifth-graders for a few minutes.

If the intent is to limit the name to Forgotten man, Senator jack, and Lizzie maine, then PMs would have sufficed.

This wasn't the intent at all, Reetpleet. When writing the first post, I simply took the first two Loungers who came to mind. I could have named friends of mine in this subculture who don't belong to the Lounge, but then no one would know who I was talking about.

How about "Revivalist" as a term to define/describe what we do to whatever extent we do it, as a definition/description? Or has this term already been considered and rejected? My thought is that the definition of the word revival (see #2) seems to cover a lot of the bases:
re·viv·al   [ri-vahy-vuhl] –noun

1.
a. The act or an instance of reviving.
b. The condition of being revived.

2. A restoration to use, acceptance, activity, or vigor after a period of obscurity or quiescence.

3. A new presentation of an old play, movie, opera, ballet, or similar vehicle.

4.
a. A time of reawakened interest in religion.
b. A meeting or series of meetings for the purpose of reawakening religious faith, often characterized by impassioned preaching and public testimony.

5. Law Renewal of validity or effect, as of a contract or judicial decision.
Since I've been involved with The Art Deco Society of Los Angeles (15 years) we've referred to what we do as "Art Deco Revivalism," as well as using this term to describe the movement-such as it was/is-beyond just architectural preservation/restoration issues, that created Art Deco Societies and related groups. That's my ¢2 worth.

This, I like. Thank you, Deco.

Regards,

Jack

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Jack this term does it apply to all of the members of The Fedora Lounge or just a few certain types of individuals. If so, please specify. In other words did you want input from other members of the forum?

 

[Tango Yankee]

I don't see the problem. Like most threads, this thread became what it will, with little respect to the original intent. that is the nature of the internet.

If the intent was to find a word strictly, then a poll would have been in order.

What it became was far more interesting in my opinion. It became a discussion of the nature of this subgroup, or other subgroups, and how it should be defined, and how it should be classified, and what are the actual characteristics of that sub group. As far as i can see, that is still up in the air.

But i do find that interesting. What are these people about? Is it about attitude, lifestyle, values, or artifacts?

If the intent is to limit the name to Forgotten man, Senator jack, and Lizzie maine, then PMs would have sufficed.

Well there ya go. You put the question to the public, and the public just might want to know a bit more about the question and ask for clarification. That's what I've been doing, anyway.

Senator Jack goes on about living the lifestyle. LizzieMaine refers to "cultural displacement" but I maintain that such a term could easily apply to myself as that perfectly describes how I feel about the local culture where I live. I don't fit in. Perhaps "era displacement?"

Still, if you're going to create a label you need a definition. From what I've read that definition needs to apply to someone who both feels like they were born in the wrong time and takes action to wrap themselves in the elements of the era they feel they belong in.

The person who feels thus yet takes no action does not get a label because they are not visible.

The person who does not feel the same way yet enjoys using primarily vintage clothing and artifacts from a particular era will get the label mistakenly applied because of appearance.

What is not clear is at what point does the label apply to someone who has that feeling or era displacement and starts adding vintage items to their lifestyle?

The discussion also seems to settle somewhat around decades. This person is a '40s person, that person is a '60s person, someone else might want to live the '70s lifestyle. Well, if those who feel that way had actually been born at a time that would have put them in adulthood in their preferred decade the truth of the matter is that they would have lived through that decade and beyond. After that they'd become just another person who is nostalgic for the period in which they grew up, saying "When I was your age..." The changes might have come slowly in rural areas, but change still came.

I couldn't find it when I went skimming back through the pages, but someone said that the term should apply to someone who wants to live the lifestyle of a decade that they didn't actually live through otherwise it's just nostalgia.

But from what LizzieMaine and others have posted, while she may not have been raised in the actual '30s or '40s that's how they were raise due to a mixture of parents who were of that era and living in a small town that was slow to change. So for those people it would appear that they are creating a pocket of time that is based upon how they were raised, which in turn is most closely based upon the culture from a particular time frame. This is not unlike what I would be doing should I actively try to recreate the "golden time" of my childhood, which happens to be the '60s.

Others, as Reetpleat has pointed out, have arrived at similar destinations through different paths--conscious decisions to dedicate themselves to a particular decade that resonates with them for whatever reason. Or perhaps they are someone who grew up in the '60s and '70s like I did, with no special emphasis placed on a particular decade or era (raised in the here and now, so to speak) and yet still pines for a time past that they never lived.

Again, if you're going to create a term, it needs to be defined. Part of that definition should be at what point the term begins to apply to an individual. A couple of posts back LizzieMaine reminded us that at the beginning the discussion began to talk about the different motivations and indicated that "it's that alienation *combined* with a sense of belonging to an *earlier* culture that's key here."

There may already be terms for such people in place. Does anyone know a psychologist, psychiatrist, or cultural anthropologist to ask? And no, I'm not being snarky about this. If you're looking for a term to apply to a sub-subculture one of those professions might already have it.

But I was under the impression that Senator Jack was looking for a term that could be coined or claimed for use that could be become a general term that the average person might become aware of. One that might be used when someone asks about how you're dressed or how you live. The problem is that even if two people are dressed just the same but one dresses like that because they like the style and the other dresses like that because they feel "culturally displaced" the average person on the street isn't really going to care about that (to them) minor distinction. Do I really care if the artist who writes hip-hop music does it because he/she feels a driving force to verbalize what they are feeling or if they write it because they know what sells? No. To me, they're just writers of hip-hop. I can't see Joe Public really caring about such distinctions.

So, the term needs to either be rather inclusive if it's to be one that the general public will learn to recognize and apply. Trying to create a popular term to apply to a sub-subculture that is distinguishable only by motives would seem to me to be a wasted effort. A term that might be used within the subculture, yes. But don't expect the public to care about the finer points. They will take that term and apply it to anyone that even vaguely resembles the definition of the term.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Smuterella]

I can't settle with the term revivalist due to the religious connotations. Every fibre of my being runs screaming from religion in all its forms.

 

[Senator Jack]

Not all atavists take a stern '40s grape-juice-Methodist view of the world. Some atavists are swingin' 60s playboys -- but the grape-juicer and the cocktail-bibbler might very well be motivated by the same sense of cultural displacement, and they both categorically reject "modern culture" in their everyday life. So despite the surface differences, they're basically doing the same thing.

God, this woman's smart, and I suspect - no, I KNOW - that even if Lizzie had no more than a passing interest in mid-century culture, she would understand that this is the very crux of the phenomenon.

Jack this term does it apply to all of the member of The Fedora Lounge or just a few certain types of individuals. If so, please specify.

See above, Carlisle.

Look, when I got into this yesterday, there were facets of this phenomenon I hadn't considered, and all the intelligent posts have led me down different avenues of thought. I thank everyone for that, because, I realize (and even about myself) psychologically this goes way beyond the simple statement of 'I do this because I like it.' Is it nostalgia? Are we just trying to find a haven in the past (Willoughby! Next stop, Willoughby!)? Everyone in this subculture has their own reasons for being in it, and i think they all seriously need to be explored to figure out just what it is we're trying to achieve by removing ourselves from modern society.

Regards.

Jack

 

[Tango Yankee]

I can't settle with the term revivalist due to the religious connotations.

Big tent with bible-thumpers inside was the first thing that came to my mind! If you don't like Anachronist due to the perceived negative SCA connotations then I doubt Revivalist will work, either.

 

[Edward]

No, I certainly concur. There is no reason that immersive "anachronism", "atavism" or what ever one might wish to call this life choice (how about "Ned"?) should be more costly than any other mode of life.

Already taken.... In Scotland, Glasgow specifically, "Ned" (Female: Nedette) is a derogatory term for a crtain (under)class of person. The English equivalent, with which people here may be more familiar, is Chav (Chavette).

Yes, I would love to hear from a 70s or 80s guy who is so alienated with modern culture, and has such a fondness for the attitudes, culture, and mores of that era, that they choose to live a full on vintage lifestyle. That would be so fun.

I wonder are they around yet.... possibly, now that there are kids born in 1990 hitting twenty.... I very definitely agree with the point made above (by whom, I forget) that there is a distinct difference between those who adopt the lifestyle of an era prior to their own lifetime, and those who instead opt to live in an era they lived through out of nostalgia, whether for their own child hood, or 'a better time' or whatever.

Is there a difference between the person who chooses to live a 1942 (or whenever) lifestlye in 2010, and the one who chooses to live their life as if it is still 1942? It seems to me that however subtle the distinction, there you are dealing with two very different mindsets.

Also, a further distinction: there is a difference between those who draw on the past, but with it fabricate for themselves an alternate time line - the steampunks, the dieselpunks, retro futurists - to in effect create something which cherry picks the attractive bits of the past while dumping the less desirable aspects (see, for instance, the position of women in Steampunk as opposed to the very different social roles of women in the "real" Victorian era). In a sort of related thought, and relating to the comments above about the commonality with which certain, more affluent past lifestyles are often chosen (much like reincarnation - noone ever seems to be a nobody, they were all Henry VIII or Cleopatra....), is there any relationship between atavism and ethnicity? I can well imagine, for instance, the past being less of a romantic place for those of an african Americna heritage, say. I don't know whether that really goes to the definition of an atavist, but my experence certainly seems to suggest that there are certain chracteristics they may have in common. If that's not too thorny / political an issue to deal with.

I can't settle with the term revivalist due to the religious connotations. Every fibre of my being runs screaming from religion in all its forms.

lol Ironically, I am religious and that would never have occurred to me.... but I certainly see where you're coming from, and I agree it might be a term better avoided on that basis, as (Amish aside) I don't think religion is a particularly relevant factor in determining Atavism (if, indeed, it is to be called that).

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Already taken.... In Scotland, Glasgow specifically, "Ned" (Female: Nedette) is a derogatory term for a crtain (under)class of person. The English equivalent, with which people here may be more familiar, is Chav (Chavette).

hmmmm, a female "Ned" is properly termed a "Senga", Ed.

bk

 

[Senator Jack]

In SF, I and others I knew lived pretty near full time or full time vintage lifestyles including dressing at home, going out to see bands and dance many nights, driving around in old cars etc. But most of them did not talk much about "how great old values were, saving money, working hard, etc" They spent more time shopping thrift stores and drinking and dancing than they did working or saving money.

This, for the most part, is the scene in NY, too, Reetpleet. In fact, I have this running joke that the hipster kids look at us and think we're all squares, but we're pretty much the most depraved bunch of idiots outside the club scene. (Again, a joke, but jokes do spring from a germ of truth :eusa_doh: )

...someone said that the term should apply to someone who wants to live the lifestyle of a decade that they didn't actually live through otherwise it's just nostalgia.

But from what LizzieMaine and others have posted, while she may not have been raised in the actual '30s or '40s that's how they were raise due to a mixture of parents who were of that era and living in a small town that was slow to change. So for those people it would appear that they are creating a pocket of time that is based upon how they were raised, which in turn is most closely based upon the culture from a particular time frame.

And a cultural anthropologist studying this subculture would, as I wrote before, take both those cases into account. In the NYMag article I linked to at the beginning of this thread, there is the 70s guy who decided to stop the clock while he was in his 20s. The glam/punk era was the best part of his life and he didn't want to let go of it. That's a man with a Peter Pan Syndrome and not really a throwback. And that's not to detract from him, only to say he found his time and stuck with it. Like Lizzie, he thought 'why change?', but their differing motivations for stopping the clock, I think, are fairly obvious and need not be discussed here. A cultural anthropologist would have a field day with them.


Regards,

Jack

Adults go here

 

[Carlisle Blues]

and they both categorically reject "modern culture" in their everyday life

we've been discussing it here is a deep and consuming alienation from modern *culture,*

See above, Carlisle.

That is an impossible situation. I live a life that speaks to vintage in several different ways including some of the ways of those who consider themselves atavist, anachronist, revivalist or no label. But in no way am I maladaptive, rejecting or alienating anything from modern culture nor do I feel less than anyone who does or is.

Whether a person uses the internet to communicate, visits a physician for the new drug to treat an illness or even reads today's news there is no rejection of "modern culture". Therefore what is being described is an ideal and not a practical means for anyone who has visited The Fedora Lounge.

 

[Edward]

hmmmm, a female "Ned" is properly termed a "Senga", Ed.

bk

Oh! I've not heard that one before, cool.... I've heard Nedette used, but didn't know there was a proper female form. So it's the full equivalent of what I would call a Spide (M) or a Millie (F).... Interesting.

 

[JimWagner]

Maybe it's time to take a break and go watch "Man of the Century".

 

[Senator Jack]

But in no way am I maladaptive, rejecting or alienating anything from modern culture nor do I feel less than anyone who does or is.

This is what I don't understand. Does anyone really think that being totally alienated from the modern world, to the point of mental breakdown and near-clinical madness, is something to aspire to? This 'condition' has severely affected my life. (and here, I am going to admit - ADMIT - that this condition once landed me an overnight stay as a 'guest' of NY State). As I said, I just quit my job, because I couldn't stomach the modern music they were playing there. Damn, I wish I were normal, but certainly I can't change: not without years of therapy and perhaps the pills that NY was trying push on me.

Really, I'm baffled.

Regards,

Jack

 

[Senator Jack]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, my car's not air-conditioned either.

 

[LizzieMaine]

This is what I don't understand. Does anyone really think that being totally alienated from the modern world, to the point of mental breakdown and near-clinical madness, is something to aspire to? This 'condition' has severely affected my life. (and here, I am going to admit - ADMIT - that this condition once landed me an overnight stay as a 'guest' of NY State). As I said, I just quit my job, because I couldn't stomach the modern music they were playing there. Damn, I wish I were normal, but certainly I can't change: not without years of therapy and perhaps the pills that NY was trying push on me.

Really, I'm baffled.

In the end, you don't choose this. It chooses you.

 

[scotrace]

hey Man

I'm in it for the pinup girls.

 

[Foofoogal]

Pick a name Lizzie and Senator. I can see it is something you both and I am sure many others that can relate want to do.

so funny that I picked this forum years ago because I thought it was for very conservative people that liked to dress in the formal attire. I am beginning to believe I am the only conservative left.

 

[JimWagner]

This is what I don't understand. Does anyone really think that being totally alienated from the modern world, to the point of mental breakdown and near-clinical madness, is something to aspire to? This 'condition' has severely affected my life. (and here, I am going to admit - ADMIT - that this condition once landed me an overnight stay as a 'guest' of NY State). As I said, I just quit my job, because I couldn't stomach the modern music they were playing there. Damn, I wish I were normal, but certainly I can't change: not without years of therapy and perhaps the pills that NY was trying push on me.

Really, I'm baffled.

Regards,

Jack

The shrinks probably do have a name for your condition. If you're looking for a less clinical name you can use publicly to avoid the possible stigma of the clinical name I'd suggest that you ask a shrink. Helping you with that sort of problem (the naming if it) should be within scope, unless the shrink is an unsympathetic S.O.B. A shrink would be a lot more qualified to help than any of us.

 

[BlancheDubois]

Pick a name Lizzie and Senator. I can see it is something you both and I am sure many others that can relate want to do.

so funny that I picked this forum years ago because I thought it was for very conservative people that liked to dress in the formal attire. I am beginning to believe I am the only conservative left.

You're not. We just tend to get shouted down.

 

[Senator Jack]

Are you kidding?