Rank and Patches on Military Jackets - Might I Offend a Veteran?

[Spitfire]

Intent?
My intension when putting on my irvin is not getting cold. Same with the 1936RAF pattern flyingboots.
Besides it's a great piece of history. And many times an opener to many great talks.
I also have two A2's. One has only my nametag on it. The other has my nametag and the boxing eagle (4FG) - in honour of this specific group.
No rank or medals on any of these items.
I do have a RAF BD that I bought in London as movieprop I recon.
It has SL rank, wings and DFC ribbon on it. It was there when I bought it, and I guesse that was also WHY I bought it. So why remove it?

I do not for one second believe that anybody will take me for a WWII veteran, when and if I occasionaly wear some of this, so my intent is only as mentioned above - and out of interst and honour to these men.

I am much more concerned with people strolling around in semi-uniforms day in and day out, trying hard to look tough, militant and dangerous.
Especially since many of them hasn't even served. They are the true imposters.
At least I did my bit for my country. Way back in the 60's

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Well..it all comes down to...if you aren't really who and what you say you are,in some instances,it could lead to serious trouble. Actions has very much to do with it..in my view. I certainly wouldn't ask someone wearing a field jacket with Sgt stripes whether he was actually ever a Sgt in the Army...then have the gall to ask him to remove the stripes if he wasn't(even though I was once a Sgt and earned that rank)...but that's just me. However..if he walked into a NG post and tried to demand a jeep and driver..that's a whole different story.
My younger Brother pestered me for my field jacket with Sgt stripes and nametag for years after I returned. I finally gave it to him...and he wore it for years as well. When asked where he got it...he proudly told the story of his older brother serving as a Dsgt in the Army.
I have heros...or men that I respect for what they did during their time in the service of my country. I may wear patches..nametags..and yes possibly rank to honor what they/he did. If someone decided to honor those of my era (VietNam)the same...I would most likey feel very honored.
HD

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I have heros...or men that I respect for what they did during their time in the service of my country. I may wear patches..nametags..and yes possibly rank to honor what they/he did. If someone decided to honor those of my era (VietNam)the same...I would most likey feel very honored.
HD

Intent?

I am much more concerned with people strolling around in semi-uniforms day in and day out, trying hard to look tough, militant and dangerous.
Especially since many of them hasn't even served. They are the true imposters.

Yes intent... Honoring someone ...a hero perhaps....wonderful intent... why not.:beer: Warmth...fine as well :eusa_clap ..... Desecration well I do not know about that.

 

[Edward_Lindey]

I have been reading over this post again, and I see the point about honouring soldiers, and I compleately agree about the display of patches. But I firmly believe that rank and awards are some thing earned and should only be worn by people who have earned them. The only exception I could see is if it was a gifted item from a soldier to a civilian and was still set up with that soldiers items.

What upsets me to no end would be a piece that has been set up for the civilian wearer that has rank and or awards pinned on. When I first joined the Army we were still wearing BDUs and when someone made rank they were pinned by the comander and then everyone would one by one would hit the rank so that the pins would stab into the skin. This "Blood Rank" was not just a form oh "Hazing" but represented the sacrifices that you have and will continue to make. I earned my rank, those who have not should not wear it.

Edward

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I earned my rank in the military,as well,while serving my country in uniform. I could then use that rank. In the military...rank means something of importance. More than just stripes...bars...or clusters....it was/is a position of responsibility to be used 24/7. However...in civilian life military rank means nothing at all. Rank holds no authority whatsoever that I know of outside of the military. Many..or most civilians that haven't been involved may not even know what certain rank signifies.
Squadron...or unit patches have great meaning of accomplishment...performance and camaraderie in military life as well....but,again,means nothing in every day civi life..."unless" some civilians are interested. Interested enough to research and honor those that layed it on the line. Picking up on what certain military groups sacrificed..suffered and overcame. Some even realise to a degree what a Sgt..Lt..Capt..etc may have endured on the battlefield or in the air in their specific rolls. Although never issued miliary gear(flight jacket..field jacket..etc)some wear them that care enough to admire what this gear,insignia and men stood/stand for.
It is a standing debate,for some,whether even certain flight jackets...insignia..or rank should be worn outside of military life..especially by those who never went through the training or were directly envolved. I tend to believe that most who wear and display these jackets,no matter how adorned,care enough to get it right to honor these men.
There are always frauds...but it's usually their phony "story of involvement" that most desecrates the truth...and,therefore,belittles what the true soldier/airman earned and stands for. I feel that I "earned' many things during my service than only just rank. I went through the training..excelled enough to earn the right to wear a certain uniform..a certain jacket..and,yes,a certain rank. Although it means very little in civi life...it is a sense of pride and will be with me until I am no longer here....but then..I would rather see more than just scattered stone monuments or plaques honoring some of the men involved. The interest by those who would honor those experiences is key. All aspects...from my point of view.
In rememberance
HD

 

[green papaya]

this reminds me of something I heard in a war movie:

"Rank is something you wear, Respect is something your going to have to Earn"

what about people who wear HARVARD , YALE, or some other prestige shirt from other schools? and they never graduated or attended those schools?

I once wore a shirt I bought at MACY's with the name of a French university and a guy on the street questioned me and insulted me when I told him I never attended and do not speak French.

 

[John in Covina]

On being what you are not.

Some see this as a question of representing yourself as something you are not.

In some circumstances, such as re-enacting it's apparent that the re-enactor couldn't be the actual person in the WWII uniform without being about 80 or more years old, so that is more apparent.

In the case of some uniform pieces or pilot jackets the current manufacture and use makes wearing rank a bit more problematic as it is posible for someone that is currently in service to have these on such a jacket.

So the question is should you "advertise" yourself as something you are not?

I am reminded of an episode where Homer gets banned from Moe's bar and goes looking for a place to have a beer and finds a pilots bar but to get in he has to masquerade as a pilot, hilarity ensues. Sometimes, in the medical field a nurse may be mistaken as a doctor and the nurse will clarify immediately when asked. The thing is that to continue the charade is to be considered a "liar" and a fraud plus it could lead to really bad problems for the patient.

With that in mind some will not invite that type of problem into their lives.

 

[Subvet642]

As far as I'm concerned; I don't mind if someone wears the gear, as long as they don't wear the rate, badges, ribbons, or patches. The gear is issued, but everything else is earned. Some might say that it's just a fashion statement, but that doesn't wash either, because those very things had to be earned by others through hard work, sacrifice or worse, and should not be debased as mere decoration. Others may say that they wear them to "honor" those who earned the privilege of wearing those stripes, pins, patches, etc., I'm sorry, but that still reads like someone making a fashion statement to me. I don't mean to be cruel, or a killjoy, but the question was asked. Am I likely to confront someone wearing them? Not unless they're trying to pass themselves off, then all bets are off. shakeshead

 

[Gene]

HoosierDaddy you're the man.

It's ALL about honor. 95% of people you see wearing period flight jackets and uniforms with rank are going to say that. The other 5% are going to be recognizable a mile away as being phonies.

 

[p51]

I’ve been a WW2 re-enactor since 1989 and have a full AFF impression with several A-2 jackets. I’ve been around active duty USAF folks in these uniforms, hundreds of veterans and several reunions in same. This is me in the front row to the far right in this photo:

I have never ONCE had anyone ever question it or think I was trying to pass myself off as a WW2 vet (pretty tough to do when you were born in 1969) nor have I had anyone give any negative feedback at all.
Oh, I was also a active duty US Army Captain, so I do understand the whole “you didn’t earn it” thing. I think that happens more with guys wearing active divisional insignia, especially with Airborne guys. The people who’ve jumped from C-130s and 141s on active duty seem to often have issues with people who never earned jump wings wearing a jump suit at a re-enactment. While I think that’s pretty childish (I mean, they’re ALL playing WW2 soldier as neither was IN that war), the AAF stuff seems to sidestep the whole thing. Pilots are generally a more laid back lot, especially the WW2 ones.
Now, this being said, my primary A-2 jacket lacks rank insignia. Not for the reason you might think because I couldn’t care less what people think of me wearing rank (maybe because I earned mine, but I doubt that would make a difference for something like this to me). Back in WW2, most A-2 jackets didn’t have rank on them. So to me, it’s not all that historically common so most of mine don’t have them.
The bottom line here is that if the WW2 vets themselves don’t seem to have any issues, why should you care if anyone else does? There will ALWAYS be someone offended at something. You can wear what you want, that’s what those vets fought for originally!

 

[Spitfire]

@ P51: :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Edward]

P-51: you nailed it. I also agree with those to whom it is all a matter of motivation and context. One other thing that would occur to me would be that I'd be wary of anything which suggested I was deliberately trying to give the impression of being in the military, partly as that's just not an image I care to project, and also partly because.... well, without wanting to cast aspertions on the whole, there certainly are military typs out there who enjoy getting into a fight, and there's always the odd one that would react similarly to a Hell's Angel who discovers you wearing Angels colours when not entitled.

As it is, I'm a fan of much military gear and its civilian application rather than a fan of the military per se, so in the vast majority of cases I much prefer the gear without any insignia on it. There are two exceptions coming: one, I intend to create my own replicas of the Travis Bickle jackets, complete with ings and King Kong Company badges, and two, I plan to recreate Elvis' army shirt (HBT?) from 58/59. I sould have thought in both caes it will be sufficiently obvious I ain't impersonating no soldier!

This is a very intersting and touchy question. A some great reading.
One think came to my mind though.

A lot of posts states "unless you are reenacting..." Why is that?
Isn't reenactors reenacting because of interest in a certain period, in order to honour veterans and what they did?
Do I - or anybody else - have to be organized in groups to show that interest or honour towards the greatest generation?
Can't one person "reenact" and show that they honour the time, the men and history?
Can't one person wear a jacket or boots or buttons or a badge or even rank on a jacket, without being member of a group of reenactors?
To me the honour and the interst is the same.
And I certainly do not need to - or want to be in any reenacting group, to honour veterans. I think about them every time I put on my Irvin. Or flying boots. Or blazer with WWII RAF buttons.
(Besides - I may be old, but not old enough to have served in WWII - so nobody will think I did. Hopefully )

Just my 5 cent...

Spitfire, very interesting points, and I agree, I do feel there is a big difference between wearing the WW2 stuff and something modern. The only WW2 stuff I'd be that careful about would be anything that was obviously Axis, especially Wehrmacht. I still fancy one or two of the wool Panzerwraps (I have just bought, very cheaply on eBay, one of the cotton Oakleaf camo ones, and I'm very tempted to pick up a second one and dye it black - shame the wool ones don't have that big patch pocket on the front) - needless to say, I wouldn't want to be wearing any insignia on that, for obvious reasons!

I do indeed see your point about re-enactors.... actually, the re-enactment thing is the best example there is, IMO, to show that it's all about context and motivation: there's probably nobody else more concerned with getting the whole look completely orret, "playing soldier" in a sense, and yet because it is done s a matter of historical appreciation etc, it's A-OK. I'm pro-re-enactment myself, don't get me wrong; I just think this is a great example of the 'context' thing.

I also abaolutely, 101% agree with the point made about the altogether more dangerous variety of 'wannabe' - MA1s and jump boots being very popular there.

As has been notied, this does come up every so often, and it's always fascinating to read how different people think on this issue.

 

[green papaya]

I think it's better to just mind your own business, you cant tell a guy on the street to take off his jacket because he didnt earn the right to wear it, etc

if some stranger tried to ask me if I was a pilot or served with some special unit etc, I wouldnt even answer them and keep walking.

 

[Edward]

Oddly enough, I'm reminded of a friend who attended a Star Trek convention in Belfast years ago. He went dressed as a Captain. One of the members of the official club approached him and challenged his right to wear Captain's rank (they took that sort of thing pretty seriously, and within the club, you had to 'earn' rank). Apparently got a bit verbally aggressive about it. "Oh," replies my friend, "I'm actually dressed as a Romulan spy in Starfleet." "Ah," says the guy, "that's okay then." And off he wanders.

lol

 

[alden405]

I once asked a veteran of the 2nd armored division about reenacting

his response was 'dress ups is harmless but until someone shoots 10 of your buddys and sh!ts in your pants for you,you cant reenact a thing"

 

[dr greg]

nice one

I once asked a veteran of the 2nd armored division about reenacting

his response was 'dress ups is harmless but until someone shoots 10 of your buddys and sh!ts in your pants for you,you cant reenact a thing"

:eusa_clap
I often wonder how many guys walking around in contemporary disposal gear and camo pants with funny hairdo's and earrings would actually prefer to be crawling up some freezing hill outside Kabul instead of drinking Red Bull in a nightclub. As I've heard it said, it's all fun and games till someone shoots at you and means it.

 

[Spitfire]

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap ...and I often wonder, how many veterans do reenacting?
It seems to me, that the guys who has actually been there, don't want to see it again. And the guys who has never been there, can't get enough.

 

[Solid Citizen]

a VET

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap ...and I often wonder, how many veterans do reenacting?
It seems to me, that the guys who has actually been there, don't want to see it again. And the guys who has never been there, can't get enough.

Have a friend, Vietnam Vet who still does WWII Canadian Paratrooper. Of interest their group does NOT allow participants to wear any kind of ribbons. They feel if you didn't earn it in the REAL DEAL you DON'T wear it in the recreated one! Solid Citizen

 

[Carlisle Blues]

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap ...and I often wonder, how many veterans do reenacting?
It seems to me, that the guys who has actually been there, don't want to see it again. And the guys who has never been there, can't get enough.

How true....

 

[MPicciotto]

A few vets do reenact. We have one in our unit. Though it's not many. But that is a whole nother discussion. My comment here is we have strayed into wearing insignia on uniforms for purposes of reenacting. I do that. And I will wear that uniform to and from a reenactment on occasion. But I don't go to the local mall sporting silver wings. The reenactors I know and are friends with all wear some of our kit outside of reenactments like un-adorned A2's. Field Jackets, I wore tropical wool trousers to a wedding recently. But its strictly because we like the gear. I don't think we can "honor the vets" by wearing rank insignia we didn't earn to a nightclub. To wear it for a historical impression is another topic.

Matt