Rabbits and Beavers

[suitedcboy]

I used to think opinions given by politicians were hard to pin down but I now know the X count on hats is by far the most difficult to evaluate.
About the only thing you can generalize about X count is that they used to mean a lot more than they do today.
For the earliest hatmakers to use X grading, a 3X hat was a fine hat with lots of beaver content and lots of time and craft invested in its construction and finish.
At some point each X stood for 10% of beaver content but for how many hatmakers and for how long that was true is really unknown. About the only thing that is true is that for a given season of hat production, higher X count means the maker thinks a hat marked nX is of lesser quality than a hat with (n+1)X.

Then we could talk for a long time about the amount of time and steps are used in finishing the felt. A 100% roadkill rabbit fur hat with careful felting and lots of hours of pouncing can feel and look many measures better than a 100% carefully nourished ideal climate raised pure beaver hat made of a shortcut felted fur and few finishing steps.

I guess the X count for staw hats reflects the fertilizer content of the grass???

 

[carouselvic]

I should have known.

 

[theinterchange]

Stetson won't even say what the x's mean.

They must think it's the keys to Fort Knox, the meaning of modern Stetson X's.... but as Goldfinger showed us... it's just a bank, and can be blown. lol

Randy

 

[mayserwegener]

In order to make a hat with beaver fur you need beavers. Not a whole lot of beavers in Europe in the early to mid 1900s so Borsalino would have needed to import beaver fur from the US. Probably expensive when even possible.

I've seen several vintage long-hair and velour beaver hats and they are still available from many custom makers.

For me, the best thing about beaver is it has better rain resistance. The rain just beads up and rolls off my beaver hats.

Sorry but the best Velours produced today are not as good as the bests ones produced prior to 1950. The US Velours (made from Beaver or whatever) from that time never matched the Austrian Velours made from rabbit - hare (this is documented). The Austrian Velours were considered to be some of the most durable hats back in that time and were highly prized. The rabbit - wild hare source (some rare) they used were not available here in the USA and had to be imported (see situation during war times). The felting and finishing processes were proprietary and heavly guarded. The process was also very time consuming (one month)and didn't fit into a mass production mentality (not just physical labor). The heavly pounced felt finishes that are so treasured by most on this board are nothing spectacular. There is reason why any custom hatter of today can produce that type of finish from beaver or rabbit - hare hoods.

I should have never gotten back into this debate so this will be last post on the subject.

 

[Ordinary Guy]

I used to think opinions given by politicians were hard to pin down but I now know the X count on hats is by far the most difficult to evaluate.
About the only thing you can generalize about X count is that they used to mean a lot more than they do today.
For the earliest hatmakers to use X grading, a 3X hat was a fine hat with lots of beaver content and lots of time and craft invested in its construction and finish.
At some point each X stood for 10% of beaver content but for how many hatmakers and for how long that was true is really unknown. About the only thing that is true is that for a given season of hat production, higher X count means the maker thinks a hat marked nX is of lesser quality than a hat with (n+1)X.

Then we could talk for a long time about the amount of time and steps are used in finishing the felt. A 100% roadkill rabbit fur hat with careful felting and lots of hours of pouncing can feel and look many measures better than a 100% carefully nourished ideal climate raised pure beaver hat made of a shortcut felted fur and few finishing steps.

I guess the X count for staw hats reflects the fertilizer content of the grass???

Great answer, much better than just "WRONG"

Thanks

 

[rlk]

There is no fully safe generalization about the felt species quality on a non-specific hat. Fur from different parts of the pelt vary tremendously as does the processsing and steps and care in the felting process. Then there are all the variations of finishing: dying and amount of stiffener and loosening the fibers or pouncing. The oils that make Beaver Fur more water resistant are largely removed in order for it to felt efficiently(part of Carroting). The shellac or sometimes grease contributes to water resistance as well.

The answer is complex and some beaver can be poor and some rabbit extraordinary.

 

[theinterchange]

There is no fully safe generalization about the felt species quality on a non-specific hat. Fur from different parts of the pelt vary tremendously as does the processsing and steps and care in the felting process. Then there are all the variations of finishing: dying and amount of stiffener and loosening the fibers or pouncing. The oils that make Beaver Fur more water resistant are largely removed in order for it to felt efficiently(part of Carroting). The shellac or sometimes grease contributes to water resistance as well.

The answer is complex and some beaver can be poor and some rabbit extraordinary.

Well put, that.

Randy

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Sorry but the best Velours produced today are not as good as the bests ones produced prior to 1950. The US Velours (made from Beaver or whatever) from that time never matched the Austrian Velours made from rabbit - hare (this is documented).

I think you are giving too much credit to the material and not enough to the hatmakers. Imagine what the Austrian hatmakers could have done with the finer, softer beaver fur if it had been available to them.

 

[mayserwegener]

Against my better judgement. They did use beaver and nutria fur for certain hats. For their fine Velour finishes rabbit - hare produced better results. Also beaver is not any softer than rabbit - hare. Beaver is more dense but that doesn't necessarly make it better for certain finishes. It is also more expensive but so are some rare wild hare furs. Also companies such as J. Hückel's Söhne produced their own felts and not just hats. This is why no other company (anywhere) was able to match Hückel Velours.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Even today, the managing director of Tonak acknowledges that beaver and nutria are finer furs but are not much used due to the higher cost.

 

[Undertow]

I should have known.

What? [huh]

 

[rlk]

The Fine Velour Finish was the result of obsessional experimentation and refinement of materials, chemistry and machinery. Most of the time consuming processing begins after felting. It in fact involves loosening the felting. The labor costs overwhelm the material costs and the market was as a high-end luxury good so they were made to achieve the finest possible result. Before WWII they had access to any fur materials they desired. I do not know their precise formulations, but if you have a chance to handle one of these hats you will see there were no compromises involved.

Nutria has the best gripping quality for felting and durability(hence Military Spec) but is much coarser than Rabbit/Hare Beaver. Beaver is less fine(size of fiber)
generally than Rabbit and Hare. Tonak's market is not ultimate quality as they compete with the Chinese so I guess they must use the least expensive furs.

Again an individual species produces a range of qualities depending on body parts and Geographical Source and Season. As with many goods there is not usually one material best for all purposes.

 

[donnc]

I should have never gotten back into this debate

For what it's worth, I found your perspective on this point very interesting and informative.

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks but Robert is much better at explaining this stuff. By the way I have nothing against beaver felt (whatever the mix) hats. I own a bunch of them.

BanjoMerlin, TONAK today is not JHS of the 1930s and earlilier. I have tried to ask TONAK specific questions regarding JHS and old Velour techniques and they will not reply back. The hat curator of the Nový Jičín City Museum even tried to help me out but nothing came of it. He pretty much admitted they don't want to discuss JHS.

 

[nigeloscar]

I have just had the tough task of choosing the materials for a Penman Indy Fedora. Beaver versus rabbit is a toughie.. should the decision come down to just cost? Living in Sydney, do I need a Beaver hat? Should every collection have a beaver hat..?

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

A Beaver hat is much tougher body than a Rabbit hat. With that comes a finer finish that can be made from a beaver hat. Pouncing of the hat can be much finer with a Beaver hat.

 

[m0nk]

I have just had the tough task of choosing the materials for a Penman Indy Fedora. Beaver versus rabbit is a toughie.. should the decision come down to just cost? Living in Sydney, do I need a Beaver hat? Should every collection have a beaver hat..?

To me, there's a couple of factors to consider: weight and durability. Most vintage hats were rabbit and were made well enough that they kept their shape and were light weight. While most modern rabbit felt is twice the thickness of vintage felt, my understanding is that John processes (pounces and steams) his rabbit hats until the felt is strong and light. Many other custom hatters dont do it the same so I'd get beaver with others but with John you should be good with rabbit. Just my 2 cents.

 

[mayserwegener]

High quality vintage felts can be of different weights, pliability and finish. It's all about the type of hat they were trying to produce. In most cases fur blends were used to achieve a specific finish / feel. At the high end fur would be aged for a year or more before felting. During felting there were more steps (also more processing time) which were reduced over time to cut costs. Specialty finishes that are not available today required long / labor intensive processes (for example it could take a month to complete some Velour finishes).

 

[mayserwegener]

A Beaver hat is much tougher body than a Rabbit hat. With that comes a finer finish that can be made from a beaver hat. Pouncing of the hat can be much finer with a Beaver hat.

Yes if that is the finish you are trying to achieve. Also some vintage rabbit / hare felts are more densely felted than modern beaver felt.

 

[mayserwegener]

Here is an interesting hat from the 1930s. My guess is it has a high Nutria or Beaver fur content due to the density of the felt and super smooth finish. The felt is not very pliable or thin but it's of very high quality. It's a perfect fit for the style hat that they were trying to produce.