Rabbits and Beavers

[cmalbrecht]

I'm still pretty fuzzy about rabbit and beaver felt. Considering the cost of a new beaver hat and the comments, I get the impression that beaver is the absolute best. But too, I know that we don't have people out exterminating beavers for their pelts as in the good old days, so they may not be so plentiful.
I have an elderly Borsalino felt that is buttery soft. I was under the impression that Borsalinos, or at least most of them, were made from Belgian Hare which is really just a rabbit that looks like a hare. Since they have a good name, I would have expected their hats to be made from beaver. I don't know that mine is rabbit or what, but as I say, it's buttery soft and can easily be shaped any old way.
Any info about all this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.[huh]

 

[gtdean48]

Unless it is marked as beaver, your Borso is most likely rabbit or rabbit/hare blend of fur felt. I've got 2 of them, both buttery soft, neither beaver. 1 is vintage, other is mid to late 1980's modern. HTH...

 

[dwebber18]

As for beaver not being as abundant as they once were. If I'm not mistaken they are still slaughtered in some Asian countries as they are a normal part of the food chain and then their pelts are used for hats among other things. And yes, if it doesn't say beaver then its not, and the price isn't really that big of a difference in some cases. An Akubra is under $125 but a new Borso will run you well over $300 for rabbit and a custom rabbit hat for about $250-$275. You can get a custom hat in beaver for really close to that price with some of our vendors and members that make hats. So if your comparison is the Akubra price range, then yeah its a big difference, but if you're looking in the new Borso range, then a beaver isn't too far off, and could be cheaper.

 

[theinterchange]

As for beaver not being as abundant as they once were. If I'm not mistaken they are still slaughtered in some Asian countries as they are a normal part of the food chain and then their pelts are used for hats among other things. And yes, if it doesn't say beaver then its not, and the price isn't really that big of a difference in some cases. An Akubra is under $125 but a new Borso will run you well over $300 for rabbit and a custom rabbit hat for about $250-$275. You can get a custom hat in beaver for really close to that price with some of our vendors and members that make hats. So if your comparison is the Akubra price range, then yeah its a big difference, but if you're looking in the new Borso range, then a beaver isn't too far off, and could be cheaper.

Penman's beaver hats start at $350 while his rabbits start at $250.

If it were a question of paying $300 something for a factory rabbit Borsolino or $350 for a custom beaver... I'd be all over the beaver, even if it means a bit of lead time. Simple economics, factory-stamp-em-out [and suspect quality compared to back in the day] or handmade-one-at-a-time [and well done for any day] for roughly the same price.

Randy

 

[Bebop]

.....which leads to the question: Why would you choose beaver over hare?

I have pure beaver and rabbit hats and although beaver does feel and wear differently, I wouldn't claim that beaver is "better" than rabbit. It's just different. After having owned a few beaver hats, I'm not sure I am willing to pay any extra money for beaver vs. rabbit.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

.....which leads to the question: Why would you choose beaver over hare?

I have pure beaver and rabbit hats and although beaver does feel and wear differently, I wouldn't claim that beaver is "better" than rabbit. It's just different. After having owned a few beaver hats, I'm not sure I am willing to pay any extra money for beaver vs. rabbit.

I've owned both, and while I don't put my hats through anything too intense, they get worn in all kinds of weather. Especially wet weather. The simple fact is, I have yet to even ponder a need for a reblock on a beaver hat due to shrinking and tapering. But I've had to get the taper blocked out of rabbit felts, including Akubras.

Basically, I think of the investment of beaver as a long-term one. Less frequent maintenance, and thus less expense over the time I own the hat. In that respect, it's what I find to be "better" in beaver felt. I also have noticed that beaver felt is a touch better at keeping out the cold winds of winter, but that could just be difference in the density. [huh]

 

[Mulceber]

But too, I know that we don't have people out exterminating beavers for their pelts as in the good old days, so they may not be so plentiful.

You're right that the supply has gone down since its heyday, but also remember that the demand for hats in general (and particularly high-quality hats) has gone WAY, WAY down. On the whole, I think beaver is more available than in the golden-age of hat wearing.

As for quality, I'd say on the whole, Beaver is better: it felts more densely, which makes it more impervious to rain, and it's also known for being softer. That's not to say rabbit isn't very good as well: I know lots of top-tear rabbit felt hats could be just as good as a mid-range beaver. Beavers just have a natural advantage. At least, that's how I understand it. -M

 

[cmalbrecht]

Thanks. Maybe beaver is more durable, but not being particularly bright, I can't tell any real difference in my hats (except that I can't swear that any of them are 100% beaver. I have a (Penney) Towncraft that is stamped XXXX Beaver, Hand Felted Edge. It's a great hat. A Resistol XXXXX Beaver dressy hat, but the others, Dobbs, Stetson, Biltmore, Dalton and Borsalino don't say anything.
I know Penney hats probably weren't the most expensive hats around at the time, but the one I have will probably wear forever. The sweatband is showing its age, but other than that, it's going strong.

 

[Neophyte]

As I recall, someone explained the natural differences to me like this:

Which animal, rabbit or beaver, spends a greater portion of their time in the water? Answer: Beaver, Inference: A beaver's fur must have a natural resistances to water, in all probability greater than that of the rabbit/hare.

Which animal, rabbit or beaver, survives in more extreme habitats? Answer: Depends on the species, but beavers can survive in the colder areas up north, so I'm tempted to say that their fur may be marginally better at keeping out the cold.

Sadly, I don't know enough to explain why beaver fur tends to be softer or more durable...

Again, this is not how I view it, this is just what a fellow Lounger explained to me. I don't know if it's right or not, but it does seem to make some sense, biologically speaking.

That said, I love my Akubras, and I wouldn't think to wear a beaver hat as much as a rabbit, especially as a college student. Beaver would be for dressier occasions, at least for me.

 

[mayserwegener]

As for quality, I'd say on the whole, Beaver is better: it felts more densely, which makes it more impervious to rain, and it's also known for being softer. That's not to say rabbit isn't very good as well: I know lots of top-tear rabbit felt hats could be just as good as a mid-range beaver. Beavers just have a natural advantage. At least, that's how I understand it. -M

Yes Beaver is more dense and maybe more durable but it doesn't always have the advantage finish wise. If you want a heavly pounced finish (see the Indy hat look) then it is the way to go. I am more into fine Velours (the most complicated felting process) so rabbit - hare produces the finest finishes (see my avatar hat). Small amounts of beaver might be added to the mix for durability.

 

[gtdean48]

Beaver fur will "felt" better than rabbit. The fibers will continue to cling tighter & tighter due to the microscopic features = beaver has more "barbs" to cause tighter joining of the felt. Rabbit & rabbit/hare blend is still good stuff but the water creatures, beaver & nutria, have an advantage. At least that is what I've read...

 

[mayserwegener]

But that has nothing to do with the finish. Beaver is more dense but you are not going the get the same results especially with Velours and other longer hair finishes. There is a misconception on this board that these type of finishes are substandard but the reality is they were more complex and time consuming. No custom or production hatter today is going to produce the finish of the hat in my avatar. It can't be acheived with a piece of sand paper. Also certain rabbit - hare species were in short supply here in the US and the felt had to be imported from Europe.

 

[gtdean48]

Didn't say it did have anything to do with finish. Your post was not up when I started my reply. I care nothing for velours no matter how complex they are = different strokes for different folks.
Given the same amount of pouncing, a beaver felt will have a better hand than a rabbit, IMHO. Beaver fibers just naturally "felt" better than rabbit.

 

[theinterchange]

.....which leads to the question: Why would you choose beaver over hare?

I have pure beaver and rabbit hats and although beaver does feel and wear differently, I wouldn't claim that beaver is "better" than rabbit. It's just different. After having owned a few beaver hats, I'm not sure I am willing to pay any extra money for beaver vs. rabbit.

I should have been a bit clearer earlier, but I was typing my response quickly.

When I mentioned the Borso vs. beaver, I was strictly speaking of the price of Borso factory vs. a better quality custom for relatively the same price.

Personally, having owned both beaver and rabbit hats, I can't honestly say that for my usage beaver is better. I like them both for what they are and appreciate folks who advocate one over the other... I have no issues with it.

I think we all get too hung up on durability issues. [huh] The wear that most put into their hats is back and forth to work, basically casual/light duty wear, rabbit will serve fine.

Were I to be working in the elements daily, I'd have to go with beaver for water resistance, durability, and longer life between reblocks.

But, I speak in generalities, so I digress. [huh]

Bottom line, given the choice between either felt for relatively the same money... I'd go beaver... big price difference, rabbit.

Randy

 

[mayserwegener]

Didn't say it did have anything to do with finish. Your post was not up when I started my reply. I care nothing for velours no matter how complex they are = different strokes for different folks.
Given the same amount of pouncing, a beaver felt will have a better hand than a rabbit, IMHO. Beaver fibers just naturally "felt" better than rabbit.

Like I said Beaver is great for that type of finish. I personally favor longer hair finishes (look close at a typical vintage Borsalino) which favors Rabbit - Hare (some Beaver for durability) so it works both ways.

 

[EggHead]

My more expensive clothing articles last longer because they are expensive and I wear them on special occasions. Weird, I know. What I wear most commonly is what I feel most comfortable in

 

[BanjoMerlin]

In order to make a hat with beaver fur you need beavers. Not a whole lot of beavers in Europe in the early to mid 1900s so Borsalino would have needed to import beaver fur from the US. Probably expensive when even possible.

I've seen several vintage long-hair and velour beaver hats and they are still available from many custom makers.

For me, the best thing about beaver is it has better rain resistance. The rain just beads up and rolls off my beaver hats.

 

[Ordinary Guy]

For me it is just a personal issue. I like the looks and feel of a beaver hat.

I have just recently found that out....

I will not buy anything but beaver from now on and the cost difference is really not that much considering the overall price.

I read an article that stated XXX Beaver on a hat meant 30% beaver, XXXX meant 40% beaver and so on.

I am certainly not a fountain of Hat knowledge so if this is wrong , please someone correct this statement.......

 

[carouselvic]

wrong

 

[BanjoMerlin]

wrong

Actually only partially wrong. Some custom western hatmakers today do use a 3x = 30%, 5x = 50% system but since there is no set system it varies.

Stetson won't even say what the x's mean.