Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[brownbuffalo]

After educating myself with the vast knowledge "dropped" on me, I went to various local vintage shops (Long Beach, Hollywood, etc. throughout L.A.) determined to find a kersey pea coat in at least good condition. Most, if not all, had surprisingly good coats, older ones at that, that ranged anywhere between $45 - $70. I was more than willing to pay that amount, but never did find a 42R sized coat.

After that, I began my search on ebay, but after much bidding, I couldn't compete with my self-imposed budget of $100, including shipping. I lost at least 8 auctions.

Finally, late last week, I found this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300190100167

I asked a couple of clarifying questions which were never answered. I suspect others had the same experience, because no one ever bid on it!!

I decided to take a risk, by the description, that it was in fact a kersey pea coat, and bid. After no counter-bids, a week later, I ended up with the coat for $37.55 TOTAL including shipping!!!

Thank you all for the knowledge. Now, am I correct in thinking that this coat is from 1968?

As you can see, even the lining is in an amazing condition!!

Now, I'm wondering if you guys can help me with cleaning the coat. The obsessive compulsive in me, would LOVE to be able to hand wash this coat with Woolite, very CAREFULLY. Is that even possible? Or should I just be safe and run it to the cleaners for a thorough cleaning?

Also, since it is wool, is it safe to wear it in the rain? Do you folks do that yourselves?

Thanks

 

[Peacoat]

NonEntity: You have a Schott Brothers civilian version, probably a 740N model, I would think. Schott had military contracts for various coats during the war. I inquired several years ago as to what was the last year they produced a military contract peacoat. The customer service person didn't have any idea.

I imagine the coat they make today, and made in the 60s and 70s, is very similar to the coat they produced under the wartime contract. The fabric you describe, however, is not what I would expect of a coat made back then. I would expect the wool to be a smooth, soft and dense wool--the "Kersey" wool. The wool used since 1978 is what I would describe as a more coarse and rough wool, compared to the pre 1978 wool. Of course Schott could use any type of wool it wanted to use in its civilian coats as they weren't being manufactured pursuant to contract specifications.

Schott is still in business and is still producing various types of coats and jackets, including peacoats. I ordered a motorcycle jacket from them a few months ago. They are located in New Jersey, and I think not too far from the City.

 

[Peacoat]

brownbuffalo: You stole that Peacoat! And it is my size. I always steer clear of non responsive sellers, but he was very specific as to the type of coat this was. Yes, this is a 1968 peacoat. The pockets will be white cotton. 1968 was the first year for white cotton lined pockets.

You may do very well gently washing the coat with Woolite, then again it may shrink. I would just take it to the cleaners. The finish looks really nice after it is cleaned and you don't have to worry about shrinkage. I have a WWII coat that was looking worn until I got it back from the cleaners. Now the finish looks like new. Same with a 1947 coat I have. Last year I believe the cleaning costs for a peacoat was less than $16 here in Tennessee. If you wash it, you will have to have someplace for a very wet and very heavy coat to drip dry. That may take several days.

As to your question about wearing in the rain. I normally will wear a more high tech--Goretex--coat when a lot of rain is forecast, but a peacoat will work just fine. It takes a long time for the rain to fully penetrate the heavy wool, but it will eventually penetrate it. If it is really cold, say below 20, I will wear a heavy wool sweater under the peacoat, which really improves the warmth of the coat. The sweater fills the spaces between body and coat where the cold air can penetrate and the sweater makes the coat more efficient.

Looks like you got a good peacoat; you will enjoy the warmth and element protection it provides.

 

[NonEntity]

Peacoat,

Thank you so much. I failed to mention above that the coat was brand new, not "previously owned," when I bought it, though how long it had been hanging in that slow-moving surplus store is anybody's guess, probably years.

When I describe the wool in my old peacoat as being rough, I mean now, after having been through hell (repeatedly rolling pooty-faced down a steep gravel embankment is but one example) and never once dry-cleaned. Also, even when softer as a new coat, it was relatively rough compared to fine men's clothing such as my dad's Hart Schaffner & Marx winter blazer and the wool collar on his Burberry all-weather coat. Even my two-year-old middling Roundtree and York (Dillard's Dept. Store brand) peacoat is considerably softer that my old one ever was, though not as dense and wind/water-resistant.

But none of those coats has what my old pea has--history, MY history.

My mom worked for AFES, and I spent two hours there every weekday after school, so I got to know most of the soldiers, sailors, and airmen who worked there pretty well. The sailors wore peacoats and I wore mine, but neither they nor I ever noticed a difference.

In fact, when the supply CPO, a great guy who had already given me all kinds of Navy stuff like insignia, medals, a sailor cap, shore patrol billy club, etc., saw me in it, he tried to get me to take it back and give me one out of the supply closet for free. But my mom would not allow it. She was a hot-looking momma who didn't want to take the chance he might come to collect.

So, my question is, how did you know from my description that my peacoat is a civilian version?

I have a manufacturing background and therefore know that it would make no business sense to devote two production lines to make and/or assemble different fabrics for such a virtually identical product. Product differentiation can be accomplished either by forking the production line at the end of the process or inserting an end-of-line changeover. So, I must assume that my jacket is made of the same "Kersey" fabric as the military-issue coats.

Is this fabric 100% wool or have something else blended in? If a blend, what is it and what's the %?

 

[Peacoat]

I knew it was a civilian version by your description and by my knowledge of peacoats in general and of my knowledge of Schott peacoats specifically.

The version with four rows of buttons (showing) hasn't been made since WWII. The tag wasn't on the right inside pocket where issue tags of that period were placed, but was on the inside collar of the coat, where Schott and other civilian manufacturers place their tags.*

Had this been an issue coat from WWII there would have been no tag at the collar, and the manufacturer would not have been identified on the pocket tag, or anywhere else on the coat. Also, if it had been an issue coat prior to 1968 (including WWII, obviously) the handwarmer pockets would have been lined with corduroy--brown, black or green, probably brown, and not white Cotton, as you described.

As to the type of wool, I can't answer that question without seeing the fabric. You say it looks as if something else may be woven in? With the Kersey wool, and with the Melton wool, the fabric doesn't appear to have anything else woven in. It could be that when Schott was no longer producing coats for the military at the end of WWII, they changed the type of wool used in the coats, but that is pure guesswork on my part. Or it could be that your coat has the Kersey wool that was used back then.

It appears that Schott still uses the same pattern as was used in WWII. That leads me to believe that Schott hasn't produced a contract coat since that war was over. Otherwise they would use the new pattern that they were tooled for, with the tooling for the WWII pattern being long gone. It could be that they didn't want to go through the retooling process to produce the new style, post WWII coats, so they never placed a bid on the contract. We will probably never know the reason, as this was over 60 years ago, and is lost to history.

I just compared the fabrics of my old wool (kersey) and the current issue (melton) wool--since 1978. I would describe the kersey as a smooth soft wool with the melton as being just a bit rougher finish. Not really much difference unless one is looking for the difference. Neither looks as though anything else has been woven in the fabric.

Hope this answers your questions.
____

*Sterlingware, the current contract holder, places its tags on the inside collar.

 

[NonEntity]

Peacoat,

I really appreciate all the info. You are, indeed, when it comes to peacoats, The Man.

All these years I thought I had a Navy-issue coat. At first I found it disappointing to learn it's not, but the fact that Schott made my early-1970s civilian-market one just like its WW II Navy-spec contract ones removed that feeling entirely. It's authentic, just in a pattern from an earlier era, with labels rearranged.

Aside from labels, I seriously doubt Schott changed anything about the coat, including the fabric. The only reason I thought it might not be 100% wool was the somewhat course "hand" of the fabric after all these years, and the fact that it has worn like iron. Those factors suggested it might have 10 - 20% nylon or some other synthetic blended in, but upon closer examination, I don't think so.

I wore that peacoat extensively from the day I got it to the late 1980s, when I moved away and left it at my parents' house. It had been hanging untouched in the same closet for over 15 years when I got it out a few years ago to rake leaves in.

First thing I noticed when I opened that tomb-like closet was the moth holes in everything wool. Yet, when I got to ye ol' peacoat, there was no moth damage whatsoever, despite that it had never been dry-cleaned, protected with moth balls, or even covered with a plastic bag. Apparently, the moths in that closet were elitists that preferred dining on the finer quality wool, cashmere, and camel hair! Or perhaps the peacoat had some sort of anti-moth treatment embedded in the material.

Whatever, but I was glad to see my old friend, uninjured, once again.

 

[Peacoat]

The current version of the Schott peacoat is 20% nylon. If yours has the same fabric, that would explain the moths not bothering it, and perhaps, its ability to "wear like iron." A little nylon woven in the fabric is a good thing. The current Schott peacoats are available online for $200 plus shipping.

http://www.schottnyc.com/wool-clothing/classic-32-oz-melton-wool.htm

It has been my experience that moths prefer to dine on fine wools, such as softly woven wool, cashmere and camel hair. The hardier fabrics will be bypassed in order to reach the "good stuff." That may also explain your coat being left untouched.

Below is a picture of your coat--with the addition of the tag of course.

I imagine with Millington NAS next door, there are an abundance of peacoats in the area. I'm from Nashville. Stay warm.

 

[Jovan]

Some good deals on pea coats here, my friends. A couple of them look like the same style as the Mariner or Classic by Sterlingwear. I'll ask this website who produces them.

 

[Peacoat]

Those peacoats may well be made by Sterlingwear. I have a civilian version that is a Sterlingwear coat. At least I think I still have it; I have so many it is hard to keep up with them! I don't ever sell one, but if a friend needs one, I will give it to him.

 

[Jovan]

Am I your friend?

 

[Peacoat]

That's a cool site, Jovan. Thanks for the link. I would be glad to give you a peacoat, except that you are in Gainesville. I doubt that it gets cold enough for a peacoat more than two or three times each year. Even then it probably really isn't cold enough to require a peacoat.

 

[Jovan]

No, believe me, my cheap garbage pea coat gets a lot of wear these days... it gets down to the 30s at night, which is mostly when I happen to be out.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Those peacoats may well be made by Sterlingwear. I have a civilian version that is a Sterlingwear coat. At least I think I still have it; I have so many it is hard to keep up with them! I don't ever sell one, but if a friend needs one, I will give it to him.

I feel silly correcting the obvious expert, but those aren't Sterlingwear coats, they are made by Fidelity. I've seen the exact same photos/descriptions at many sites - the Barre Army-Navy Store, Legendary USA, etc. Check out the source, Fidelity's own wholesale page:

https://www.fidelitysportswear.biz/Outerwear.aspx

Fidelity is a long-time maker also located in Boston (like Sterlingwear), and I think their quality is pretty comparable to Sterlingwear. (With Schott, they seem to be the three major US-based "spec" peacoat manufacturers these days.) I got my daugther one of their coats, and though it's in a lighter fabric, it's essentially very similar in construction quality to the Sterlingwear that I just got for myself.

BTW, the cheaper coats shown on the page are also familiar - they're by Rothco.

 

[Peacoat]

That's OK Doc, I didn't know whether it was a Sterlingwear or not. The civilian coats are not interesting to me. It needs to be military issue and about forty years old, or more, to hold much of an interest for me.

I think you are exactly right about there being three major manufacturers of peacoats today. Seems that is where I started in my research when I first became interested in finding a replacement for an issue peacoat that was given to me back in the early 70's.

Over the years it had gotten misplaced, and I wanted one just like it. Easier said than done when one's knowledge base is so limited and the fabric had been changed for 27 years. Along the way, and after a few false starts, I found several replacements (a whole bunch actually!) and learned a lot about peacoat dating in the process. I also found the original peacoat that had shrunk a bit from being in the closet for thirty years. It is a 40, and I now wear a 42.

I took notes as I went along, or I would have forgotten more than I know about the various peacoat variations. When my wife cleans up around the house, it usually takes me between two days and two weeks to find my notes. She just doesn't understand the amount of time that went into developing the knowledge contained in the notes. But thank goodness I have her, or every closet would be filled with the different years and versions of the vintage Navy peacoats.

 

[sfflyfish]

Different label?

What a wealth of information that has been provided here! A while back I decided to search for a Peacoat like one I owned years ago. Thanks to you all I was able to narrow down the search to something close to what I most likely had back in the late Sixties.

a recent search on eBay came up with this coat auction. (170192054374)
Can any of you Peacoat wizards identify the era of the label shown in the auction?

Best regards,
Doug

 

[Peacoat]

If that is an authentic coat, it is WWII vintage, or earlier. The tag is not where I would expect to see it. It is on the back of the neck and not on the inside pocket. And the tag is not a type that I have seen before. The name is stenciled in several places on the lining, and the lining looks to be unworn. Most of the WWII coats I have seen, have worn lining. But that doesn't mean that all do.

If it is authentic, there should be a strap on the underside of the left collar at the front where it would close at the throat when the collar is in the up position. Or, only a button or two might remain. Can't tell from the picture.

From the measurement at the chest, this is a form fitting size 42, as they were made back then. If it were a copy, I would expect to have more room at the chest. The tag has language similar to tags of a later era and is not the phony military tag type that I have seen in the past. I have not seen this type of tag on phony military pea coats.

So, I don't know for sure without seeing the coat in person. If you want a WWII coat, this would be worth bidding on to see what you get. I would guess 60/40 in favor of true vintage. But that is just my educated guess. Someone else may have another opinion. Let me know what you decide to do.

 

[craigob]

peacoat

Gents,

I was directed here from a WW2 forum about a Pea coat I picked up a few months ago. I'm trying to find out weather its worth selling on..

Its a little grubby nothing a good brush wont fix. its missing two buttons. so any ideas? ww2, later ?

The weave is heavy more compact weave, there are no labels inside nor in the sleeves or pockets other than the one i posted and the inside of the pockets is like a cordaroy material and its really small

 

[Peacoat]

It's a WWII coat. I would have it cleaned, replace the buttons, protect it from the moths in a closet with moth protection and let it keep you warm this winter. Looks like it had little wear--the label is like new, and I imagine the rest of the coat doesn't show any wear either. I would never sell a peacoat of that era in such good shape.

 

[craigob]

Sadly it has to be sold, I'm selling of a lot of my militaria and this and a couple of US tunics are all thats left..

 

[sfflyfish]

Well, I emailed the seller and he stated there was a neck strap. Unfortunately the coat was a bit too long for me at 35" since I'm only 5'7" soakin' wet.

Besides the bidding got too rich for my blood at $150+. I want one to wear, not store under glass!

Now, for something real interesting check out eBay auction 280200758154. There's a Peacoat hiding in the jumble of photos! A four pocket style with starred anchor buttons. I'll bet it's glass case time for this coat too?

If that is an authentic coat, it is WWII vintage, or earlier. The tag is not where I would expect to see it. It is on the back of the neck and not on the inside pocket. And the tag is not a type that I have seen before. The name is stenciled in several places on the lining, and the lining looks to be unworn. Most of the WWII coats I have seen, have worn lining. But that doesn't mean that all do.

If it is authentic, there should be a strap on the underside of the left collar at the front where it would close at the throat when the collar is in the up position. Or, only a button or two might remain. Can't tell from the picture.

From the measurement at the chest, this is a form fitting size 42, as they were made back then. If it were a copy, I would expect to have more room at the chest. The tag has language similar to tags of a later era and is not the phony military tag type that I have seen in the past. I have not seen this type of tag on phony military pea coats.

So, I don't know for sure without seeing the coat in person. If you want a WWII coat, this would be worth bidding on to see what you get. I would guess 60/40 in favor of true vintage. But that is just my educated guess. Someone else may have another opinion. Let me know what you decide to do.