Question for European Members...

[panamag8or]

I was reading a thread, and oce again, I had to google a British slang term. It led me to this site:
http://www.rockabillyeurope.com/

Note: site is SFW

I noticed that in their banner, they have an image of what we in the States call the Confederate Battle Flag, a symbol of the southern states during the Civil War. It has become a rather controversial symbol here, so much that at least one state was pressured into removing it from their state flag, and I won't post it, so as not to offen anyone. Many here consider it racist.

My question is: why would it be in a european site's banner? Does it have a different meaning there? Is it something the rockabilly crowd picked up as a symbol of rebellion?

I don't want this to devolve into a political discussion, but I am curious as to what it's meaning is in Europe.

 

[Spitfire]

The only places I have seen the mentioned flag, are with slightly racist, whitepower/white trash, skinheadtypes.
And certain bikergangs too.

So it just might have the same meaning here as well.
Just my 2cents.

 

[Woland]

In Scandinavia the Confederate flag is associated with vintage American culture, mainly the 50s and 60s.
We have a huge culture for vintage American cars...

This is the website for the largest Norwegian organization...
These people will parade their cars at weekends and celebrate the 4th of July with dedication.

These people are not racists, more like culturists...
They do have amongst them people who has little love for darker complexions and 3rd world religion & culture.
WASPs to the bone...

Most of them have an intense dislike for Asian fabrications.
(Hungry? Eat your Japanese bike... etc.)
Yet; they will receive any US Citizen with open arms, as long as said citizen share their affection for Americana.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

I was reading a thread, and oce again, I had to google a British slang term. It led me to this site:
http://www.rockabillyeurope.com/

Note: site is SFW

Thanks for the warning.

 

[Ada Veen]

I associate it with racism, and you see it on belt buckles and stuff all the time. I think some people just think its like a cool retro fashion thing or something. It's weird. What does SFW mean?

 

[Fleur De Guerre]

Safe For work.

I just associate it with General Lee!

 

[nyx]

I was reading a thread, and oce again, I had to google a British slang term. It led me to this site:
http://www.rockabillyeurope.com/

Note: site is SFW

I noticed that in their banner, they have an image of what we in the States call the Confederate Battle Flag, a symbol of the southern states during the Civil War. It has become a rather controversial symbol here, so much that at least one state was pressured into removing it from their state flag, and I won't post it, so as not to offen anyone. Many here consider it racist.

My question is: why would it be in a european site's banner? Does it have a different meaning there? Is it something the rockabilly crowd picked up as a symbol of rebellion?

I don't want this to devolve into a political discussion, but I am curious as to what it's meaning is in Europe.

I have noticed from attending quite a few Rockabilly events that the confederate flag is pretty popular within the group. It signifies being a "rebel" for many of those people, which is (not to generalize) one aspect of rockabilly that is attractive to many, ie. the James Dean, Marlon Brandowe rebel thing. Also, the southern country and blues roots of a lot of rockabilly music may have some influence. Many people in the south are proud of being from the south, and the flag represents it to them. Some people do not accept the connotation that it is a racist symbol--instead for some it is a symbol of freedom and rebelling against the oppressive government.

That said, as a minority person, I can't say that I agree with it. Although I sure did love me some Dukes of Hazard when I was a kid. But that show, itself, is an example of that particular meaning behind the flag. I don't believe that the creators of that show meant it to be racist--Bo and Luke Duke were rebels against "the man"--Boss Hogg and the police department, and proud of being hillbillies. And since I'm from Kentucky, I can say "hillbillies." lol

Symbols can be so easily taken over by things that originally have nothing to do with it. I give the foremost example of a swastika, which to most people mean Nazi, but to my culture (Chinese) is a symbol of peace and unity and has been for centuries before Hitler came along.

 

[Edward]

Safe For work.

I just associate it with General Lee!

lol That was my first experience of it too! I've seen it used here and there in the rockabilly community, what I've seen of it. In limited cases I'm sure it carried all the negative undertones that have been associated with it, but for the most part to be honest I think that people just see it as a sort of "alternative American flag." Similar to the way it was used in the Turkey Creek sets in Cry Baby (something John Waters really pushed for as he wanted to accurately reflect the way people used those symbols in the Baltimore area in '54.... simply a cultural thing, not reflecting the racist associations mapped onto it). Back in Northern Ireland, the Confederate flag meant two things - the Dukes of Hazard and "that cowboy flag" that ladies of a certain age loved to wave around with their white cowboy boots and hats while line dancing, not a one of them with any notion of what it meant historically, let alone the fact that to some folks it's equivalent to waving around a Nazi flag. (I remember one of the hardcore punk kids in our village back in the 80s put up a Nazi flag in his window - a bunch of old boys paid him a visit and explained that he was going to take it down... that would never have happened with the Confederate flag). So, sure there are racists over on this continent, but predominantly folks treat it as a "rock'n'roll rebellion" kind of thing, I guess in much the same way that a lot of people have played with anarachy symbols, or wave skull and crossbones flags nowadays.

It seems to me that much like the need to bear in mind the distinction historically between WW2 era Wehrmacht and the Nazis per se, there's a similar delineation between the CSA and racism (I don't claim to be an expert, I'm sure folks here can correct me if my understanding is wrong, but I've long suspected racism was as rife among the Union troops, even if slavery was no longer acceptable in polite Northern society). That said, sometimes a symbol simply has become too entrenched in a negative meaning for too many to be successfully reclaimed - the Swastika is a prime example of that. I'd hate to see Confederate reenactors outlawed as promoters of racism, though!

 

[BellyTank]

Rockabilly Rebel! Flag=Rockabilly, a mistaken cliche..

I think the song: "Rockabilly Rebel" may be partially to blame for the association with Rockabilly and that flag,
as over here, I think it became an icon of sorts and helped to establish and identify Rockabilly as a cultural niche.
The Rebel flag. Adopted perhaps, in ignorance of it's negative, contemporary American associations,
adopted as a kitsch symbol for the movement, a misunderstood cliche.

Perhaps.

B
T

 

[panamag8or]

So, to the majority of Europeans, it is just a symbol of Americana, but a few espouse it for it's racist connotation? That's what I was wondering.

I am from the south, and proud of it, but as far as the flag, I can take it or leave it. I don't have a rebel flag, nor do I display any image of the flag. I am more loyal to my state flag than to the rebel flag, as it holds more meaning to me, anyway. My family never owned slaves, but some did fight for the Confederacy. It had more to do with protecting their land and livelyhood, rather than the issue of slavery, as it did for most southern soldiers.

Oops, I didn't want to get political.

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

I associate it with racism, and you see it on belt buckles and stuff all the time. I think some people just think its like a cool retro fashion thing or something. It's weird. What does SFW mean?

My great, great Grandfather David Dodds fought under that flag. He also had a large plantation. And slaves that were inherited. He treated them well and his family members were glad when the war was over, because they didn't have to worry about hundreds of human’s welfare anymore. Did my grandfather fight for slavery? I don't think so.

My grandpop "Bill" Dodds fought in WWII. My Mima and my grandpop were both from the south and both highly anti-racist. A letter from my Mima:

" I remember when she did this in Alabama (Rosa Parks)- It was impressed on me when I was 13 on a Greyhound Bus coming from Philadelphia to Asheville- when we got to the Pennsylvania state line the driver stopped the bus, went fast back of me and made a nice black lady move back- I was very upset- "

I'm rather offended by all of this misrepresentation of the battle flag. My point is, why should the battle flag be associated with racism instead of simply standing for the Confederate States of America?(the old south) My great great Grandfather lost his arm in the war. To keep a people enslaved? Where would his slaves have gone and what would they have done if he had given them their freedom and left them to themselves? They had been in the family before he was even born. Long after the war a kind black Mammy stayed on to help take care of the children.

I hope that's not to political, but what else can I say? There's much more to South then bigoted white supremacists.

Uncle Tom's Cabin? Hmm.......

 

[Mid-fogey]

Most of those...

...who fought under the flag never owned a slave and were fighting for their "country", which before the war was your state. Before the war people used "United States" in the plural, as in: "the United States are against that." National unity was not what it became after the war.

In the late 20th century, the flag was hijacked by a variety of people, the vast majority of whom are not real southerners and have no link to those who fought in it.

 

[panamag8or]

...who fought under the flag never owned a slave and were fighting for their "country", which before the war was your state. Before the war people used "United States" in the plural, as in: "the United States are against that." National unity was not what it became after the war.

In the late 20th century, the flag was hijacked by a variety of people, the vast majority of whom are not real southerners and have no link to those who fought in it.

I agree. Even though there was a United States, most people's loyalties, north and south, ended at the state line.

I'm glad the South didn't gain independence, because there most likely would have been another half dozen "civil wars" in the years since, if one of the states got irritated with the government.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

You chaps are an enlightened bunch, I must say. Particularly well said, Panamag8or, Atterbury, Edward, and Mid-Fogey. Thanks for the gentlemanly tact.

For a lot of Southerners, the War Between the States wasn't about slavery, but about being told what to do. Although he's hard on us, there's an interesting book on the subject of the Southern character by John Hope Franklin called, "The Militant South" that examines the forces that shaped the region and its people, and how it ultimately led us to conflict with centralized authority. Dear old H.L. Mencken has some biting-but-true things to say about how the South fell into the wrong hands after the war, as well.

My solution to the flag controversy has been simple - Fly our correct flag, the Stars and Bars. Everyone just thinks I'm from Texas.

"Dixie", which everyone thinks is our national anthem, suffers under a similar misconception to the Battle Flag. Our actual national anthem, "God Save the South", is a virtually unsingable and hymn-like song that pretty much states that we knew we couldn't hold out, but were willing to die rather than knuckle under...

Okay, Cracker shut mouth now.

T.

 

[panamag8or]

You chaps are an enlightened bunch, I must say. Particularly well said, Panamag8or, Atterbury, Edward, and Mid-Fogey. Thanks for the gentlemanly tact.

For a lot of Southerners, the War Between the States wasn't about slavery, but about being told what to do. Although he's hard on us, there's an interesting book on the subject of the Southern character by John Hope Franklin called, "The Militant South" that examines the forces that shaped the region and its people, and how it ultimately led us to conflict with centralized authority. Dear old H.L. Mencken has some biting-but-true things to say about how the South fell into the wrong hands after the war, as well.

My solution to the flag controversy has been simple - Fly our correct flag, the Stars and Bars. Everyone just thinks I'm from Texas.

"Dixie", which everyone thinks is our national anthem, suffers under a similar misconception to the Battle Flag. Our actual national anthem, "God Save the South", is a virtually unsingable and hymn-like song that pretty much states that we knew we couldn't hold out, but were willing to die rather than knuckle under...

Okay, Cracker shut mouth now.

T.

Ahh, the Virginian in you is still strong.:eusa_clap

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Ahh, the Virginian in you is still strong.:eusa_clap

Yesirree, but when it comes to a secessionist pedigree, you Floridians have us whipped by more than 50 years, even if it was the doing of your cousins from the panhandle. Give the Bonnie Blue Flag a wave for me!

T.

 

[panamag8or]

Yesirree, but when it comes to a secessionist pedigree, you Floridians have us whipped by more than 50 years, even if it was the doing of your cousins from the panhandle. Give the Bonnie Blue Flag a wave for me!

T.

I know I should get this, but I dont.[huh]

 

[carter]

You chaps are an enlightened bunch, I must say. Particularly well said, Panamag8or, Atterbury, Edward, and Mid-Fogey. Thanks for the gentlemanly tact.

For a lot of Southerners, the War Between the States wasn't about slavery, but about being told what to do. Although he's hard on us, there's an interesting book on the subject of the Southern character by John Hope Franklin called, "The Militant South" that examines the forces that shaped the region and its people, and how it ultimately led us to conflict with centralized authority. Dear old H.L. Mencken has some biting-but-true things to say about how the South fell into the wrong hands after the war, as well.

My solution to the flag controversy has been simple - Fly our correct flag, the Stars and Bars. Everyone just thinks I'm from Texas.

"Dixie", which everyone thinks is our national anthem, suffers under a similar misconception to the Battle Flag. Our actual national anthem, "God Save the South", is a virtually unsingable and hymn-like song that pretty much states that we knew we couldn't hold out, but were willing to die rather than knuckle under...

Okay, Cracker shut mouth now.

T.

One further observation, if I may. There were until recent generations a number of Southerners who continued to refer to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression".

Some of the finest officers in the US Army, seasoned during the Mexican-American War, graduates of West Point, Lee and Jackson among them, joined the Southern cause. They did so because of issues of States Rights not because they were proponents of slavery.

 

[dhermann1]

Without re-fighting the "war that shall remain nameless", the Confederate Battle Flag is a cool flag just in its design. The Stars and Bars is totally unnoteworthy. If the Battle Flag just wasn't so cool looking there would be no issue. When I was a kid, visiting Gettysburg in 1959, my brother and I each got those little felt hats. One got a Union hat and the other got a Confederate hat. Don't remember who got which. Part of the whole "romance", (mythology?) of the war was that even the Union soldiers respected the gallantry with which the Southern men fought. This was maybe one of the factors that helped "bind up the nation's wounds". So even tho I definitely do associate the Battle Flag with all that was wrong with the Southern cause, it also embodies all that was admirable.

 

[Ada Veen]

One further observation, if I may. There were until recent generations a number of Southerners who continued to refer to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression".

Some of the finest officers in the US Army, seasoned during the Mexican-American War, graduates of West Point, Lee and Jackson among them, joined the Southern cause. They did so because of issues of States Rights not because they were proponents of slavery.

I suppose it proves that old adage that the winners of wars write the history books.