Question for European Members...

[carter]

I tip my hat to you, Sir.

Without re-fighting the "war that shall remain nameless", the Confederate Battle Flag is a cool flag just in its design. The Stars and Bars is totally unnotworthy. If the Battle Flag just wasn't so cool looking there would be no issue. When I was a kid, visiting Gettysburg in 1959, my brother and I each got those little felt hats. One got a Union hat and the other got a Confederate hat. Don't remember who got which. Part of the whole "romance", (mythology?) of the war was that even the Union soldiers respected the gallantry with which the Southern men fought. This was maybe one of the factors that helped "bind up the nation's wounds". So even tho I definitely do associate the Battle Flag with all that was wrong with the Southern cause, it also embodies all that was admirable.

Well stated. :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[carter]

I suppose it proves that old adage that the winners of wars write the history books.

Well, it proves that there will always be more than one point of view. It also is indicative of the staying power of oral history which existed long before mankind learned to preserve what was previously only spoken.

I'm thankful that the conflict did not irreparably sever the bonds that created this nation. Binding up the nation's wounds was necessary on both sides of the war.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

"Hurrah For the Bonnie Blue Flag That Bears a Single Star..."

I know I should get this, but I dont.[huh]

Sorry about that, Panamag8or. Didn't mean to be cryptic:

For just a little while in 1810, there was an independent Republic of West Florida, although it only lasted something like 74 days before America rolled over it, and was mostly in Mississippi and Louisiana with parts of Florida thrown in.

It came into being because the local inhabitants didn't want to knuckle under to Spanish rule, and so they overpowered the Spanish garrison at Baton Rouge and ran their new flag up the pole, proclaiming themselves a new nation, free from Spanish, French, and American control.

That flag, called "The Bonnie Blue Flag", became a famous symbol of resistance to domination. When Mississippi joined the Confederacy, they flew the flag over the statehouse in Jackson, and the flag and a song of the same name became symbols of the Confederate Cause and of State's Rights.

I'm probably not doing this tale justice, and I know I'm leaving a lot out, so here's a link to the story of the Republic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_West_Florida


Plus an article about the flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag


And a link to the swell song, written to the old tune of "The Irish Jaunting Car" - great to march to! You'll find an audio link on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonnie_Blue_Flag


So what I meant to say was that the brave men of Florida were the first to set the tone for Southern independence, which is a very fine pedigree to own, in my opinion!

T.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

the Confederate Battle Flag is a cool flag just in its design. The Stars and Bars is totally unnotworthy.

You've got us there, Mr. Hermann. The battle flag was our Graphic Designers' shining moment. It was all downhill after that. "The Stainless Banner" was a cool idea, but it looked so much like a flag of surrender that they tacked a red bar on the end - a fairly slapdash solution. The "Bonnie Blue Flag" is nice, but it properly belongs to the Republic of West Florida. And the Stars and Bars are pretty, but too much like too many other flags.

I'm sure if we'd had a little more time to work on it, we'd get a nice flag down pat, but as you can imagine, we were busy entertaining... err... guests.

I myself have previously referred to the War Between the States as "The War of Northern Aggression", but on reflection over the tidy sum of gravestones it produced, I decided that both of our sides were more than sufficiently aggressive.

T.

 

[panamag8or]

Sorry about that, Panamag8or. Didn't mean to be cryptic:

For just a little while in 1810, there was an independent Republic of West Florida, although it only lasted something like 74 days before America rolled over it, and was mostly in Mississippi and Louisiana with parts of Florida thrown in.

It came into being because the local inhabitants didn't want to knuckle under to Spanish rule, and so they overpowered the Spanish garrison at Baton Rouge and ran their new flag up the pole, proclaiming themselves a new nation, free from Spanish, French, and American control.

That flag, called "The Bonnie Blue Flag", became a famous symbol of resistance to domination. When Mississippi joined the Confederacy, they flew the flag over the statehouse in Jackson, and the flag and a song of the same name became symbols of the Confederate Cause and of State's Rights.

I'm probably not doing this tale justice, and I know I'm leaving a lot out, so here's a link to the story of the Republic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_West_Florida


Plus an article about the flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag


And a link to the swell song, written to the old tune of "The Irish Jaunting Car" - great to march to! You'll find an audio link on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonnie_Blue_Flag


So what I meant to say was that the brave men of Florida were the first to set the tone for Southern independence, which is a very fine pedigree to own, in my opinion!

T.

As a self-proclaimed student of Florida history, at first I was embarrassed that I did not know about that. I did know about West Florida, but not the Republic. Then, I read this in the wikipedia article:

The boundaries of the Republic of West Florida included all territory south of the 31st parallel, west of the Perdido River, and east of the Mississippi River, but north of Lake Pontchartrain. The southern boundary was the Gulf of Mexico.... Despite its name, none of present-day Florida lay within its borders.

Ahh, absolution! A minor footnote in the history of the area before the United States gained possession of what is now Florida. More of an item for AL, MS and LA historians to deal with.

But, it never hurts to learn, and now I know more than I did this morning.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Panamag8or,

Sorry, old chap. Didn't mean to make you doubt the foundations of your learning. Indeed, there wasn't much of Florida in the Republic, but it's still a claim you can't go wrong with, like "Distantly related to the House of Windsor"...

T.

 

[Cobden]

Oddly enough, we have a confederate battle flag hanging from a wall in the sitting room in our student house, and we've never really considered in racist - we just have it because of our desire to have the most strangely decorated student house in the UK (two spears and one SMLE on the wall, one Confederate battleflag, two union jacks, three pith helmets and two fezzes on a sideboard and a list of nonsensical house rules, plus the usual assortment of pizza boxes, beer cans and kebab wrappers).

In my eyes, if you want to get the living daylights kicked out of you by anyone with more braincells than a sea cucumber, there's the flyfot

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Don't worry about displaying the Battle Flag, Cobden - We thank you for it. Although it is militant in its implications, the better classes of Southerners don't see it as a symbol of racial strife or difference. It's a symbol of our determination to hold on to our identity, warts and all.

Heaven knows we've done what we can to make things good for everyone, but my feeling on the Confederacy is, "Destroying my history won't change yours".

By the flyfot, you mean the NSDAP Swastika, right? Pardon my ignorance of the word...

Carter, it's okay with me if everyone gets statues, Arthur Ashe and Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, and Abraham Lincoln and Paris Hilton and you and I and Cobham and whoever wants one, so long as they leave our heroes alone. Remember all the fuss about the floodwall portrait of Robert E. Lee? Such a shame.

If we let the pendulum swing too far, someday they'll go into Hollywood Cemetery and pull down the pyramid to our Confederate dead. Thin end of the wedge. We have to stop 'em at the 38th Parallel, General Eisenhower.

T.

 

[carter]

Don't worry about displaying the Battle Flag, Cobden - We thank you for it. Although it is militant in its implications, the better classes of Southerners don't see it as a symbol of racial strife or difference. It's a symbol of our determination to hold on to our identity, warts and all.

Heaven knows we've done what we can to make things good for everyone, but my feeling on the Confederacy is, "Destroying my history won't change yours".

By the flyfot, you mean the NSDAP Swastika, right? Pardon my ignorance of the word...

Carter, it's okay with me if everyone gets statues, Arthur Ashe and Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, and Abraham Lincoln and Paris Hilton and you and I and Cobham and whoever wants one, so long as they leave our heroes alone. Remember all the fuss about the floodwall portrait of Robert E. Lee? Such a shame.

If we let the pendulum swing too far, someday they'll go into Hollywood Cemetery and pull down the pyramid to our Confederate dead. Thin end of the wedge. We have to stop 'em at the 38th Parallel, General Eisenhower.

T.

...all the fuss about the floodwall portrait of Robert E. Lee...

In 1999 there was a great deal of controversy concerning this mural from both sides of the question with both supporters and detractors of Lee decrying his image being hung on the floodwall along the canal walk in Richmond. On June 2, 1999 the mural was installed. On June 3, 1999 the mural was removed. On Nov 3, 1999 the mural and others were beginning to be reinstalled and the installation was complete by November 21, 1999. However, the mural of Lee was changed from the original image. The revised mural was burned by someone on January 17, 2000. It was restored in February 2000.
Original mural

Revised mural

...someday they'll go into Hollywood Cemetery and pull down the pyramid to our Confederate dead...

As easily remove statues of Robt. E. Lee in New Orleans, Charlottsville, Dallas, and at Gettysburg.

New Orleans

Gettysburg, PA

Dallas, TX

Charlottsville, VA

Richmond, VA

Tatterscratch, I quite agree that revisionist history doesn't change facts or recollection of fact one iota. "Warts and all", a people's heritage is what it is. Because a present generation recognizes their heritage does not mean that we have not learned from the actions of our forbears. It simply indicates a willingness to recognize the past rather than deny it's existence.

 

[Woland]

So what I meant to say was that the brave men of Florida were the first to set the tone for Southern independence, which is a very fine pedigree to own, in my opinion!

T.

Indeed Mr. M Tatterscratch.

An interesting byline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminole

 

[Baron Kurtz]

As an European of Old leanings, confederate flag = Dukes of Hazzard. Nothing more, nothing less. Pure, 100% unadulterated televisual ephemera.

bk

 

[M Tatterscratch]

As an European of Old leanings, confederate flag = Dukes of Hazzard. Nothing more, nothing less. Pure, 100% unadulterated televisual ephemera.

bk

Don't worry about only knowing us through the Dukes of Hazzard, Milord - After all, most Americans still picture the French in berets and striped shirts, and we almost never recognise a German unless he has a monocle or a black uniform on...

Ai-yi-yi! Don't even get me going on the poor Native Americans, Woland! Did you read this entry?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Seminoles

Talk about "a rock and a hard place"...

T.

 

[Woland]

Ai-yi-yi! Don't even get me going on the poor Native Americans, Woland! Did you read this entry?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Seminoles

Talk about "a rock and a hard place"...

T.

Indeed I did.
A feisty bunch?
Can imagine platoon after platoon being sent into the marshes, only to disappear.
Native-Americans & Afro-Americans with:

A: A chip on their shoulder...

B: Intimate knowledge to both terrain and enemy...

Not the people yould like to meet in a dark... ehhh... swamp...

 

[thunderw21]

I have a Confederate Battle flag hanging in my room. Why? I think it is a neat flag and it stood for the side that wanted to decentralize government, the way it was originally meant to be (under the Articles of Confederation, that is). A large majority of those who fought under the flag actually never owned slaves and the war was not truly about slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863, roughly two years after the first southern state seceded.

I had an ancestor who died at the Andersonville prison camp. Why don't I hate the flag? Because both sides committed attrocities and I do believe the South was fighting for more than just slavery. Remember this: slavery existed for 100 years under the American flag while it existed only 5 years under the Confederate flag.

An excellent book dealing with the Civil War and today is "Confederates in the Attic" by Tony Horwitz. I highly recommend it; it's an easy and interesting read.
And sorry if my post got too political, I don't want this thread to get locked.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Thunderw,

A fine recommendation, that book - I read it this past summer. Surprisingly light tone for such a contentious subject, which is just what it needed...

Regards,

T.

 

[Ada Veen]

this thread is sure edumacational!

 

[M Tatterscratch]

this thread is sure edumacational!

Welcome to the jackleg historian's thread, Ms. Veen!

Yes, we's mighty erudilicious aroun' h'yar. Between us an' Rudyard Kiplin', we got the market on book-larnin' cornered - Kiplin' knows jungles, an' we know ever'thang else...

T.

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Ladies and Gents,

I was posting in the "What's Your Favourite Poem" thread, and I remembered this, which perhaps more properly belongs with our discussion here.

It's been a rare pleasure to have this discussion. Thank you.

T.


Following General J.E. Johnston's April 1865 surrender of his forces in North Carolina, Major Sidney Alroy Jonas penned these verses on the back of a half-printed $500 Confederate bill at the request of a young Northern lady who wanted to take the note home with her as a souvenir:

LINES ON A CONFEDERATE NOTE

Representing nothing on God's earth now,
And naught in the waters below it,
As the pledge of a nation that's dead and gone,
Keep it, dear friend, and show it.

Show it to those who will lend an ear
To the tale that this trifle can tell
Of Liberty born of the patriot's dream,
Of a storm-cradled nation that fell.

Too poor to possess the precious ores,
And too much of a stranger to borrow,
We issued to-day our promise to pay,
And hoped to redeem on the morrow.

The days rolled by and weeks became years,
But our coffers were empty still;
Coin was so rare that the treasury'd quake
If a dollar should drop in the till.

But the faith that was in us was strong, indeed,
And our poverty well we discerned,
And this little check represented the pay
That our suffering veterans earned.

We knew it had hardly a value in gold,
Yet as gold each soldier received it;
It gazed in our eyes with a promise to pay,
And each Southern patriot believed it.

But our boys thought little of price or of pay,
Or of bills that were overdue;
We knew if it brought us our bread to-day,
'Twas the best our poor country could do.

Keep it, it tells all our history o'er,
From the birth of our dream to its last;
Modest, and born of the Angel Hope,
Like our hope of success, it passed.