Purists, Afficionados?

[Grinder]

Hi Guys,

Just curious as to who has modified their WWii jackets or gone for "modern concession" versions over reproductions, or do the majority here go for "as close to the real thing as possible"?

Personally, on the hopefully soon to be delivered A2 from Aero, I requested matched horsehide, red lining and inside pockets.

On a future B6 I plan to have the length of the back and arms tailored and a windflap fitted. This way I get outside pockets and don't need a B3 or Irvin for colder windier days. Maybe someday if I get a Morgan, Caterham 7 or some other open sports car I can consider an Irvin then

I understand the purist thinking but for me I don't have an aircraft or attend many historical get togethers however I like the style but with a preference for a little more practicality. I guess my thinking is more "fit for purpose" but without ruining the lines or deviating massively from the original spec.

The prompt for this were deanglens and USAAFacepilots postings and a few others including my own regarding lengths, cut etc. If we were in 1940 no doubt we took what we were given and were glad of it or made our own arrangements if not. To paraphrase Frankie Boyle "Yes there is a tailor made option - you can **** off!" may have been to response to some pilots stationed in Scotland

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for those who want theirs as authentic as possible and I cringe when I see some of the knockoffs. Just curious as to where the line might be if there is one. After all, a lot of us are putting a lot of beanies into our acquistions and want them to last as well as look good.

Cheers, G

 

[Edward]

I know exactly where you're coming from. On the one hand, I like things to be as authentic as possible. You're paying a lot of money for an Eastman or Aero or Goodwear or whatever, and what you're really paying a premium for is only in part the quality of the jacket itself. Really, if all you wanted was a leather jacket of any style of a fair quality level, you could get that for less. What you're paying the extra for is, IMO, the accurate period fit, the accuracy of the features, and other relevant specialist skill and knowledge, as well as of course it being a small-scale operation producing hand-crafted garments. All that being the case, I do think it generally worth sticking to the original details as far as is reasonable....

On the other hand.... I'm an overweight, middle-aged guy, unlikely ever to fly in a military aircraft, never been in anything smaller than a 737... I'm twice the size and over a decade older than the kids who flew in WW2, so no matter how accurate my jacket might be, there comes a point where if I'm the one wearing it, it just can't be all that 'correct'.... I suppose for the serious reenactor, it's different, but I see no harm in making certain modifications for practicality's sake. After all, unless you're looking to re-enact (which, with the best will in the world, most of us interested in the jackets simply are too old to be an accurate portrayal to do), or you're a serious collector, there's little point in placing serious limitations on the practicality of a jacket that you want to take out and wear.

It's always gonig to be bit of a balancing act.... personally, I just couldn't bring myself to wear an Irvin with handwarmer pockets, but if I was custom ordering an A2 that I was going to wear day and daily, I would probably consider fitting an interior pocket. The way I would do it, though, would be to keep it within the spirit of the period by doing it in the style of the field modifications made by guys to whom these jackets were issued at the time. The folks who wore them 'for real' seem to have often been rather more cavalier in how they treated them that we often are ith our expensive repros!
If you want an interior pocket in an A2, for example, why not have it made along the lines of how the 352nd Fighter Group had theirs:

(photo of Eastman's reproduction).

Red linings were a field modification that, if memory serves, pilots carried out on attaining their 'ace' status, which came with a confirmed fifth aeriel victory. As to internal pockets, well.... if a USAAF pilot ever considered the advantage to be had from one of those after having seen the jackets issued to his USN counterparts, I'm sure he would have considered it a worthy modification to make for when out on the town in an A2... handy place to have the wallet, essential for buying drinks to impress the English girls at the dances...

I would also bear in mind that there were many private purchase jackets during the war period - Andrew (Aswatland), one of the leading A2 experts on the Lounge, a while back posted photos of an unusual A2 which had deep green knits, and an olive-drab coloured lining. As the image of the A2'ed Flyboy became an archetypal depiction of the All-American Hero, many commercial companies started to produce A2-style jackets, which of course made such concessions to practicalities for civilian uses. After all, the average guy had things to carry in daily life - gloves, keys, wallet, comb... - that a combat pilot had no use for while up in the air (even truer of the modern civilian man!).

 

[JimWagner]

My Cooper G-1 is exactly like the one I was issued in the Navy back in the 60's, except both it and I are bigger.

I wished my original G-1 had hand warmer pockets and I wish my current G-1 had them. If I every buy another it will have hand warmer pockets. Maybe it won't be historically as accurate but it will be more practical for me.

 

[deanglen]

Hey, I'm a guy who painted a cheap A-2 modern jacket, (I'm wearing it in my avatar) three piece back with slash handwarmers, with fabric craft paint just to see how it looked, so I guess I don't qualify as a serious collector.
Actually I opted for cheaper A-2s in the first place because I wanted to see how I felt about the style after wearing something at least close to a vintage spec jacket. That way, I could decide on high-end repro after getting a feel for the type of jacket.
The problem now is not whether I could save up for a Good Wear. I could. My problem is being comfortable with wearing a $850+ jacket, and not because of the danger of harming it. It's part of me that cringes at major expenditures: I'm too cheap.
I'll haunt ebay looking for that find that suits my inability to part with the funds for one item costing so much. I know that if you add up all the jackets I have bought, 2/3 of the cost of a Good Wear has been spent. I get that. It's just that I could swallow those bites easier than pretending to be an anaconda for a full size brand new horse(hide) piece.



dean

 

[Fletch]

Not WW2 - but I modified my Eastman steerhide A-1 to trim up the fit at the waistline and give a bit of windflap allowance inside the buttons.

More info & more pix here

I think of this jacket as a rugged wearer. It's too heavy for a fully authentic A-1, which would be capeskin, and it's full enough in cut to layer under in wintertime.

Now it's more adaptable and I enjoy wearing it more - but it's no longer factory original, which compromises its resale value (and of course, its desirability to purists).

Eastman - for good reason - is a premium brand, an investment you can wear. My error with this jacket, if it was one, was in thinking of it only as clothing.

 

[kampkatz]

Fletch, as long as you enjoy wearing your jacket with its modifications, no need to mind what the "purists" say.

 

[gyrobroyeur]

irvin pocket modification

This is my mod on ALC Irvin:


This is the paradox: i didn't want slash pockets... I don't know why, the B3 style pocket don't shock me...

 

[Fiver64]

the big question.........

Personally, I can't justify possibly ruining/altering a historically significant WW2 garment, when only a finite number exist. Most 60 year-old-plus leather is not in peak condition anymore. I'm happy with a very authentic reproduction.

 

[Widebrim]

I have a Korean War USMC Ike jacket, and have done nothing to it, nor do I plan to. The only extra item I have added to my WWII USA Ike jacket is an original 2nd Cavalry patch.

 

[Phantomfixer]

Great thread

I love this thread. It is great to hear from all the jacket owners. I have seen some awesome jackets here in the lounge, and I would love to own one of each but .... Here is my deal. I have had a few original A-2s. None of the museum quality or they where but too small to wear. Sooo after years of searching for the perfect repop A-2, I can tell you that I am about the hide. When it comes to a repop A-2 I look at the hide. Not so much the type of zipper or snaps. I have had most of the big names. Willis & Geiger (2) my first back in 85 at age 19, loved it)Eastman(3), LW(3),Aero(1), I think a Real McCoy but I bought it used so it might have been a Eastman. I have had the mid grade too US Authentic, The Cockpit, alot of Coopers. All great jackets I should have kept them all but was always trading, wheeling and dealing. I settled on a Flight Suits russett HH. The hide was very smooth at first and I was going to send it back but I have had it for two years now and wow the hide is just gorgeous.

 

[Edward]

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This is the paradox: i didn't want slash pockets... I don't know why, the B3 style pocket don't shock me...

Nicely done! I wodner was that a mod ever carried out in the field? I've not yet purchaed an Irvin - I fell in with a deal on a B3 first. The pocket on the B3 is just perfect for stowing a pair of gloves is, I find: when eventually I buy and wear an Irvin, I know I'll miss that on it!

 

[Edward]

Personally, I can't justify possibly ruining/altering a historically significant WW2 garment, when only a finite number exist. Most 60 year-old-plus leather is not in peak condition anymore. I'm happy with a very authentic reproduction.

This is where I'm at with it too. It would be lovely to have an original, but they're very scarce in my size (I imagine I'd be into a 44 in some of those, as the Eastman I fell in with just before Christmas is a 42 and a good fit on me; did I pick it up correctly that they are slightly more generous in cut than can be originals?), thus expensive and, well.... as you say, wearing a piece of history that is rare, valuable, and could be damaged.... I don't think I'd ever feel quite comfortable with that. On the other hand, I equally cannot justify owning a jacket as part of a collection which would never be worn - just don't have the money or the space - so originals are out for me, too.

 

[Grinder]

Must have been the time of day I posted of the effects of some medications (all legal and prescribed) - the "their" in the first sentence is my bad and I was curious as to who had modified originals. It's just dawned on me that if there are any 90 yr olds here with due respect ye might have more important things to consider than an inside pocket or two

If I had an original in wearable condition I wouldn't touch a thing other than necessary essential repairs. Failing that donate it to a flight museum and wear a repro instead.

Thanks for the responses - most insightful and enlightening. I saw the 352nd mods on ELC after I placed my order with Aero and as a returning customer with a hefty discount from a trade in saw no reason to cancel. Plus the canvas pockets are stitched through to the outside which, if I had an original wouldn't bother me but on brand new HH, I'll pass for now.
Aero are putting in inside patches in the same material as the lining so from a distance it shouldn't be noticeable and from what I can gather there were quite a few similar mods made at the time, or inside blood chits where used.
Thought about that too but decided against.

Reading this thread back has gotten me to thinking about how I got to choose an A2 initially. It was never a life long ambition to get one - Rolex has that honour. Might have been stills of Steve McQueen in The Great Escape, or watching it again one Christmas then a trip to the web to see if they were still available. It's kind of funny but I guess I must have tripped over something on the interweb that piqued my interest. I know I was in the market for a leather jacket and me being me probably went looking for something esoteric. God knows what I would have picked up without clever search engines.
I remember seriously considering US Wings and someone else who had an offering in Kangaroo!
An Indy was also on the cards but couldn't find anyone seriously recommended - besides, I prefer McQueen and Sinatra to Ford, and Fedora don't really suit me head.

Love this forum...

 

[John in Covina]

I'd say there is a correlation to your concepts of collector, enthusiast, and your personal level of what we can call "anal retentiveness." What exactly is it about these various aviator jackets that seem to draw out that personality trait?

In the past we have seen knock down drag out arguments as to the proper leather color for some pilots jacket and then someone posts a series of pictures proving that the variety that came from the various contractors encompassed a whole slew of color variations. Add to that the question as to the colors changing with time as the jackets aged.

People argue over the stitching, the way the leather was tanned, the fabrics the zippers, the labels. It's fun and interesting but if you're losing sleep over it, you may have gone too far.

The prices for some of this repro stuff is in the rarified stratosphere, for those prices it should be exactly what you want. If it's more important to be exactly the way it was go for it, but if you are going to actaully wear it as an everyday jacket then the niceties that you'd like to have may make it a jacket you enjoy wearing over the exactitude. Sometimes it is something you can only know in hindsight.

Stimulate the economy and buy 2- one exact and one with the custom touches you want. After 5 years sell the one you don't want.

 

[Grinder]

Stimulate the economy and buy 2- one exact and one with the custom touches you want. After 5 years sell the one you don't want.

Kinda did that already - originally bought a Russet HH when I visited the Aero workshops 5 years ago and not long after a brown SteerHide trainee as the price was right and I wanted something I could really throw around without worrying how much it cost.

Just sent back the HH as a trade in against the Seal HH as russet isn't my colour. I'm keeping the trainee jacket for a while as my knockabout as still I don't fancy rough-housing in an expensive new horse jacket. If Aero will take it back it will hopefully go against B6 later this year.