Prices: Then and now

[MK]

Yesterday I was having lunch with a couple of members of our fine club and the subject of prices came up.....being that I was spending a crazy amount of money on a hat.

We have a discussion for what hats cost now vs what they did back in the day. Some took the stance that they were just as expensive as today. My information leeds me to believe that they are more expensive today. This made for interesting talk as we enjoyed our fine pub grub.

I figured that it would be good to open the discussion to the rest of the club. Here is some information that I have on items from my 1935-36 Montgomery Wards catalog:

Suits:$15-22.50
overcoats: $10-22.50
fedoras:$1.79-3.65
Dress shoes:$1.89-5.00
underwear (briefs) .35 cents each
radio: $26-60.00
refrigerators:$89-139.95
watches:$1.19-33.75 for a 10k, 15 jewel Elgin
pump shotgun: $28.45-33.45
lightbulbs .8-.20 cents!

So....if underwear is $10 for a three pack....that means .35 = about $3.33 today. Having said that....a fedora from a major department store in today's dollars would be $17.01-34.70

That sounded a little low to me so I tried with the shotgun. A Remington 870 costs about $500....so with that as a guide the fedoras of yesteryear would cost $26.85-54.75

Any way you slice it, they appear to cost more today. It would be interesting to know what a custom hat would cost from back then.

 

[Imahomer]

That is interesting. I'm thinking that part of the answer is back "in the day", a hat was a standard item that every clothing establishment carried and I'll bet they had a lot of them in a lot of styles. Now days, it's pretty much a speciality item. Not many clothing stores would carry them, or have much of a selection. You would need to go to a hat store to get any sort of choice and hat stores are not on every corner!

 

[Imahomer]

Another aspect that is fun to consider is the quality of the item. I'm sure we all know that items made back then were made to last. The craftsmanship was well above what is generally seen today. So much so that many items made then, command a much higher price today. Not due to the natural increase in prices, but due to the superior quality of yesterday.

 

[MK]

The average worker in the thirties salary was $1,368.

That is about $26. 31 a week.

 

[Imahomer]

I remember my Dad telling me about the first house he ever bought. In those days it wasn't the great investment that it is now. He waited a year because the cost of the homes in San Francisco went down with time, instead of the way it is now days. After a year, he was able to save up enough to get into his house. Now days, you save and save, but the cost of homes rises faster than you can save.

 

[ITG]

Originally posted by MK
Yesterday I was having lunch with a couple of members of our fine club and the subject of prices came up.....being that I was spending a crazy amount of money on a hat.

Hmmmm...you by chance would be getting a PB Mercury?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw the thread where you mention getting an Optimo.

 

[Marlowe]

Originally posted by Imahomer
Another aspect that is fun to consider is the quality of the item. I'm sure we all know that items made back then were made to last. The craftsmanship was well above what is generally seen today. So much so that many items made then, command a much higher price today. Not due to the natural increase in prices, but due to the superior quality of yesterday.

Personally, I'm not convinced that our forefathers were the lucky recipients of first-rate goods everywhere. I think that we of today can be forgiven for thinking so because most or all of the things that remain are here BECAUSE they were well-crafted. The cheap junk that only lasted a year or two got tossed in the trash decades ago. I remember my dad telling me about cheap-junk pop-metal toys he had when he was a kid, and cheap shoes that started sqeaking when he had walked in them just a few days after getting them. (And how frustrated he was with their lack of durability.)

In the 1920's a dollar was worth approximately 10 times what it's worth these days. Of course that's approximate. Some things hadn't been invented yet or the manufacturing base and popularity of the items weren't high enough yet to cause economy of scale and competition to pull prices down, but a factor of ten is a decent rule of thumb.

Manufacturing base, economy of scale and popularity are the reasons why old-fashioned things like hats and vacuum tubes have become more expensive (even accounting for inflation) over the years. They've become specialty items. Demand has fallen off and manufacturing resources have dwindled, so each individual unit becomes more expensive to make. I suspect that things like washing machines and refridgerators have probably come down considerably in price, accounting for inflation, and are much more feature-laden.

So, I bet that 50 years from now people will be feeling like all the good stuff was made at the turn of the century, and that "this modern 50's stuff is pretty much all junk."

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Hang on, a Remington 870 is $500!? Around here, you can get an 870 Express model from Walmart for $250, sometimes less if it's on sale.

As for hat prices, my stepfather was a cowboy from the age of 14 till he was 40, and he wore western hats. In 1962 he paid $100 for a 50x beaver hat from the American Hat Company of Houston, Texas. Accounting for inflation, that hat today would cost over $600.
By the way, my stepbrother still has this hat, and wears it every day. A good hat will last a lifetime.

 

[Imahomer]

Originally posted by Marlowe
Personally, I'm not convinced that our forefathers were the lucky recipients of first-rate goods everywhere. I think that we of today can be forgiven for thinking so because most or all of the things that remain are here BECAUSE they were well-crafted. The cheap junk that only lasted a year or two got tossed in the trash decades ago. I remember my dad telling me about cheap-junk pop-metal toys he had when he was a kid, and cheap shoes that started sqeaking when he had walked in them just a few days after getting them. (And how frustrated he was with their lack of durability.)

I'd agree that not everything was first rate. Although I can give you countless items that were much superior to what is now produced. I've still got my father and uncles toy soldiers. Cast metal and much more durable than the plastic ones I had as a boy.

You are probably right though, we do have a tendancy to look at the past with rose colored glasses.

 

[Travis]

Once again posting to OLD threads, I found this earlier today and found it relevant. http://www.paper-dragon.com/1939/priceguide.html

 

[Mike in Seattle]

Could it also be a question of different levels of quality and craftsmanship being compared? A mass-produced item everyone had 70 years ago vs. a more limited demand, carefully-crafted item of today influencing the prices? Or in other words, is the price of a mass-produced hat from Montgomery-Ward in the 30s vs. a modern-day handcrafted hat a fair comparison? A working-man's hat then vs. something more elegant today? Are they constructed from the same or at least comparable materials? Do they both have similar expected useful lives? Which is the better value for the investment? Would comparing the price of a modern-day reproduction Dusenberg to the MSRP of a 1930 Ford perhaps give similar results?

Just a few thoughts...

 

[52Styleline]

Average Income 1920's $1,236
Average Income 1930's $1,368
Average Income 1940's $1,299
Average Income 1950's $2,992

This is something I have looked into from a variety of perspectives and my conclusion is that while production costs of goods have declined the average earning level has remained fairly constant when adjusted for inflation.

Since costs of production and materials has declined we can buy more than people could in the earlier decades. Quality of what we buy is another matter, however. If you buy identical quality today, you pay about the same percentage of your earnings as our parents and grandparents did. Of course this is very broad brush economics and you can find individual exceptions quite easily.

 

[carebear]

Don't forget that cost of production now includes a heck of a lot more to absorb in the way of additional costs of various taxes, licenses, tariffs and "consumer safety" legislation. As well as higher corporate insurance levels due to more widespread (and obscene) judgements.

The drop in quality is somewhat necessary just to offset the additional cost of production from government interference, aside from cost of material increases and the like.

 

[Viola]

I just want a thirty dollar shotgun!

-Viola

 

[carebear]

I just want a thirty dollar shotgun!

-Viola

Used Mossberg Maverick, next one I see I'll grab it for ya and mail it down.

 

[reetpleat]

Firstly, I hardly think it can be blamed on government interference. For one thing, yoiu can now get things made in a foreigh country with no tariffs, not to mention mechanization.

It is hard to compare because some things are so cheap to manufacture, while other things are manufactured in other countries etc.

I tend to go with the ten percent and then some rule.

In the sixties cars and motorcycles cost about one tenth. From the 1940s to the 60s, inflation was low, then it took off and became times ten or more. So I would say a modern hat would be about the same price, but of lower quality. a hat that is accdeptable to your average joe then, versus one that would be acceptable to your average joe today would cost about the same. You art willing to pay for a speaciality artisan, or at least a smaller run specialty manufacturer for a hat. Back then that would have cost you extra, just as now.

As far as quality though, there was a broad range, but it doesn't make sense to speculate that they had poor quality things but none of the poor quality things survived. We surely would have some rare examples of something lost in an attic. I have never ever seen a hat or suit as poor quality as what we find today. They could never have sold them. Labor was cheap enough and decent materials as well that there was no reason to scripm. Of course the finest quality cost more.

At any rate the 1000% or a little more inflation rule of thumb seems to make sense for most items.

A five dollar hat would cost fifty bucks. Think about it. If ereryone still wore hats, don't you think that you would see men paying from fifty to a thousand bucks for a hat depending on their budget and need to look prestigeous?

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

There are many things produced in the past where the quality was far superior to anything available today. In some cases there are things in which we cannot even reproduce the original quality if we wanted to, due to loss of the manufacturing/crafting methods or tooling.

I wouldn't say that modern things are less useful or effective, they just have less time spent on their manufacture especially on things like fit, finish, aethetics, etc because modern items are not meant to last forever and thus it is pointless to waste money on such things. You don't need a $10 toaster from Wal-Mart to last 75 years.

Most importantly, though, I see the abandonment of quality as a cause (or symptom?) of the loss of low-cost, skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled labor. Due to government interference and cultural shifts, there is no longer a large pool of domestic labor available for time-intensive tasks, particularly those which require some skill.

Instead, we have an increased number of highly-skilled, expensive domestic workers and a huge number of unskilled foreign ones. Such a situation is not condusive to the production of quality items.

 

[reetpleat]

Most importantly, though, I see the abandonment of quality as a cause (or symptom?) of the loss of low-cost, skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled labor. Due to government interference and cultural shifts, there is no longer a large pool of domestic labor available for time-intensive tasks, particularly those which require some skill.

Instead, we have an increased number of highly-skilled, expensive domestic workers and a huge number of unskilled foreign ones. Such a situation is not condusive to the production of quality items.[/QUOTE]


Are you kidding. There is no shortage of both skilled and semi skilled and unskilled laborers in this country. The problem is jobs for them.

If anything you can blame it on lack of government interference in allowing trade restrictions used for many years to keep markets safe (I do not necesserily agree or disagree)

So, as you state, we have a large number of skilled workers in this country and unskilled ones in another. But the problem is that all the manufacturing is in the foreign countries. Of course this dos not mean that the laborers in the foreign countries could not become skilled workers. But with the technology and low standars we have for quality, they will remain unskilled.

We could choose to have higher quality in this country or made in a foreign country. It is more a matter of what we are willing to accept, and waht we are willing to pay for and not pay for quality wise.

As far as blaming government interference, in the old days we had government interference in the forme of trade restrictions. That is why we had a highly skilled labor force in this country making quality goods.

 

[Twitch]

Part of the problem is that back then craftsmen made things like furniture instead of that Ikea crap out of pressed sawdust that you assemble yourself. They built radios and later TVs in limited production quantities with lots of hand work.

In the post WW 2 times the Marshall Plan rebuilt Japan and western Europe and we began importing cheap crapola I assume as a favor to the countries rebuilding so they could on day become economic trade partners of the world. The stuff we got in the 50s was truly laughable in quality.lol By then the plastics industry was booming and, well, you know the rest. We have plastic cars now! I had a 57 Olds 98 that possessed massive bumper brackets which mounted more massive chrome bumpers that I smashed into all sorts of things with absolutely no damage. Today they bump something at 5 MPH and do $1,200 damage. By the 70s hand crafted quality was over.

Corporations got greedier and greedier for higher and higher profits so the top echelon can pillage the company with retirement in the hundreds of millions while the poor schlub buying their crapola at Wal-mart can barely afford even that.

Anything we seek today that has quality construction with skilled handwork costs up the kazoo. Hats are no different I guess.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

Are you kidding. There is no shortage of both skilled and semi skilled and unskilled laborers in this country. The problem is jobs for them.

So, as you state, we have a large number of skilled workers in this country and unskilled ones in another. But the problem is that all the manufacturing is in the foreign countries. Of course this dos not mean that the laborers in the foreign countries could not become skilled workers. But with the technology and low standars we have for quality, they will remain unskilled.

I did not say that the workers did not exist, I said that they did not exist at a low cost. The low cost part is essential. For middle-class America to afford the use of labor-intensive goods and services, the cost has to be relatively low. 100 years ago, hand tailoring and domestic service were not considered the luxuries they are not precisely because their cost was not out of reach of ordinary middle-class families. Can you imagine a modern American middle-class family with one or more full-time live-in servants, and with all their clothes custom made by a tailor?