Patch placement on MA-1 jackets?

[Deacon211]

Those are pretty cool. I have no way of knowing whether those patches were copied exactly from originals or not, but they all look completely plausible.

I only say this because, as I'm sure most people know, most of the "Top Gun" jackets have patches that no one person could ever accumulate, Marine Air Wings, SeaBees, Task Force 77, etc.

Looking at these I think it reinforces the point that the flight jacket has only had any semblance of standardization in the recent past. And I'd say that the Navy is still of the mind that the CWU is the last bastion of self expression amongst the pilots...a point of view I always rather appreciated, being over patched having been a bit frowned on in the Marine Corps.


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[Stand By]

Oh, I'm certain that they're faithful stitch-for-stitch copies of an original - the Japanese are great copiers and are quite OCD about that sort of thing. Which is good for us!

 

[Deacon211]

Oh, I'm certain that they're faithful stitch-for-stitch copies of an original - the Japanese are great copiers and are quite OCD about that sort of thing. Which is good for us!

That's very cool to know. I don't want to over generalize but one of the things I've always admired about the Japanese is their attention to detail.

Jackets, models, and of course so many of the Japanese cultural artifacts show such amazing detail in the tiniest and most obscure places.

Even not knowing if these jackets had been copied from originals, they would still look amazingly authentic. The fact that they are just makes them even better.




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[Big J]

It's funny that you should say that.

I remember reading, perhaps in the book "Hell Bent for Leather", the author specifically addressing the fact that old Chuck, icon though he was, would probably never wear his A-2 to Pancho's like he did in The Right Stuff... It was against regs.

You know J, I got to think that if you couldn't find a pic of say Ritchie or Debellvue in their MA-1s, you might find a pic of 555 or some other fighter squadron from the period and model your jacket after it.

It might not be patterned exactly as one of these guys would have worn it. But it would be at least "period representative".

Alternately, you could always write the Air Force Museum and ask for their help. I'm sure they have both the historians and a truckload of squadron pictures never released.




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Deacon, I'd wager that my image of Chuck based on The Right Stuff is highly inaccurate, but it is a very powerful image, and I guess it's not going to be a bad way to be remembered. Hats off to him.

I'd love to get out to Pancho's. That'd be like visiting holy ground.

And I think you're right- Ritchie and DeBellevue must have been photographed hundreds of times by the Air Force.

 

[Big J]

Check this out!

http://dogfighthistory.be/Dogfighthistory/Robin_Olds_files/9__$!@!__inconnu.jpg

Not flight jackets, but the patches on the flight suit may give a good idea about the placements used:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...s_100th_combat_mission_over_North_Vietnam.JPG
http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090220-F-1234P-012.jpg

Another pilots of the same era, with MA-1 or L-2B:

http://e.standard.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/max_800/stories/2012/03/11/122943-123615.jpg
http://blog.eastmanleather.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/afw001025.jpg

Great pictures! Thank you very much!

 

[Big J]

Oh, I'm certain that they're faithful stitch-for-stitch copies of an original - the Japanese are great copiers and are quite OCD about that sort of thing. Which is good for us!

Yeah, they can be real OCD about details- my wife is.
But I think the guys at BR's are pretty serious about getting it right.

Deacon, you're right about the whole Top Gun thing. This is why I'm worried about getting it right. On my USN jackets I'm happy with a squadron and carrier patch, but when it comes to USAF jackets, I'm never really sure what I'm doing- squadron, group, wing patches- what's best?

This is why photos are so good- interesting to see the culture of using patches changing over time.

 

[Deacon211]

Well if it helps any, I spoke to a guy that I work with who flew F-4s beginning in '73, both in the US and Europe. His take was that it was the standard Command, Squadron, Wing patch on the chest, right sleeve, and left, respectively.

So, I don't think you could go too far from wrong with that setup for an early seventies jacket. For something older, I think a picture is you're most promising avenue.

Also, I agree about old Chuck. There are worse ways to be remembered than they did inThe Right Stuff. Actually, I wish it was common for old pilots to wear their old jackets in public. For probably understandable reasons, we don't wear them while we're on active duty and then we feel too guilty to wear them later.

I still feel a twinge of guilt wearing any of my jackets around other military pilots....

.....but then I remember that I'm old, so I don't give a #*^%.


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[Big J]

Deacon, thank you for speaking to your colleague. I appreciate that a lot- straight from someone in the know, that's good enough for me.

I agree that it's a shame that old pilots don't wear their jackets in public, but maybe they're wary of being asked lots of questions by people like me, when they're just trying to buy groceries at the store or something.

I understand that in this day and age, it's maybe not safe for many servicemen and women to wear uniforms out and about, in much the same way as it's not safe for nurses to walk around advertising the fact out of work. It's a shame, because I think that they should be able to wear their uniform with pride anytime, and people should show them respect for their service to our society.

I don't really understand why you might feel any guilt about wearing your flight jackets now that you're not serving. I think you earned the right.

But you've got me thinking about where enthusiasts like me should draw the line between showing respect, and being distasteful. So I started a new thread;

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?81759-False-Valor-Walter-Mitty&p=1930710#post1930710

 

[Deacon211]

You know, it's a tough call.

As pilots, we tended not to wear our flight gear out in town. It was against regs, more frowned upon in the Marines than other services, but generally disallowed.

The common punishment, depending on who caught you, was usually something humorously embarrassing like being required to stand as duty officer and being required to do so in your Dress Blues (with sword) for a month. These infractions were mostly about not getting caught on the skyline than being sentenced to hard labor.

Still, and in part because you were surrounded by your peers, you just didn't wear your CWU or G-1/A-2 to the bar or walking around town.

And somehow, that winds up sticking with you after you retire or get out. I still wear my G-1 because I like the comfort, the history, and the good looks of old flying jackets.

But, I'd be reluctant to wear one down in Pensacola, or in Annapolis, or DC. I'd feel too much like other pilots were thinking "What's up with the Great Santini here?" And I have to admit, I might think the same upon seeing someone else similarly attired, though I do the same.

And apparently I'm not alone in that. When I got out, I worked and continue to work with former military pilots from every branch of service. To my knowledge, only two ever wear their flight jackets anymore. Actually one, the F-4 guy, only occasionally does so once I convinced him to get a WPG A-2 after he donated his old A-2 (non-issue I suspect since I think he got out in the days before the resurgence of the jacket) to a grandchild.

And that's why, though I have a wall of patches, I'll probably never patch up a G-1 or WEP...I'd never wear it.




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[Big J]

That's very interesting Deacon. Such a massive sense of modesty amongst pilots, which kind of surprises me because I'd always thought that it was good for military pilots to be over-flowing with confidence.

I guess real pilots must have fell off their chairs laughing at Top Gun.

 

[Deacon211]

Well, let's just call it "closely restrained overconfidence".

Most military pilots secretly think that they are at least above average amongst their other mil pilot peers. But you'd have to be a real toolbag to express that out loud...and you'd better be right, because every pilot possesses the inherent ability to really show his a** on occasion!

Even the Red Baron was shot down.

So, I'd say that most mil pilots are more like Iceman than Maverick...confident, occasionally insufferably smug, but not generally willing to broadcast it lest they bring the fates down upon themselves.

The very few guys like Maverick are generally looked down upon by their squadronmates as Loose Cannons...as dangerous to you as they are to the enemy.

Also, consider that being in a squadron and wearing your jacket out in town is like being on a sports team and wearing your jersey to a party with your teammates.

"Hey, I play for the Patriots!"

"So, so does everybody else here! What do you want, a medal?"




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[Big J]

Well, let's just call it "closely restrained overconfidence".

Most military pilots secretly think that they are at least above average amongst their other mil pilot peers. But you'd have to be a real toolbag to express that out loud...and you'd better be right, because every pilot possesses the inherent ability to really show his a** on occasion!

Even the Red Baron was shot down.

So, I'd say that most mil pilots are more like Iceman than Maverick...confident, occasionally insufferably smug, but not generally willing to broadcast it lest they bring the fates down upon themselves.

The very few guys like Maverick are generally looked down upon by their squadronmates as Loose Cannons...as dangerous to you as they are to the enemy.

Also, consider that being in a squadron and wearing your jacket out in town is like being on a sports team and wearing your jersey to a party with your teammates.

"Hey, I play for the Patriots!"

"So, so does everybody else here! What do you want, a medal?"




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Ha! That's entertaining to hear.
Over on the other thread, I'm asking about how wearing flight jackets could be mistaken for 'false valor', but your comments make me think that wearing a really accurate patched repro is just about the strongest sign that the wearer isn't the real thing.

 

[Fanch]

Ha! That's entertaining to hear.
Over on the other thread, I'm asking about how wearing flight jackets could be mistaken for 'false valor', but your comments make me think that wearing a really accurate patched repro is just about the strongest sign that the wearer isn't the real thing.

My point in the other thread regarding 'stolen/false valor' was not about wearing flight jackets but one saying or implying that one has seen combat action, including medals, when this is simply not the case. Particularly over the past 15 years, I have met and conversed with a number of true warriors (Congressional Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Navy Cross, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, etc.) and found virtually all of these warrior heros to be humble/understated, truly unique individuals.

Although I have no problem with anyone wearing a military jacket with patches, for me it is a personal turn off unless the patches represent actual experience. I recall one TFL member buying an A-2 repro for his dad with patches that coincided with his dad's military experience, which I thought was a wonderful thing to do.

 

[Big J]

My point in the other thread regarding 'stolen/false valor' was not about wearing flight jackets but one saying or implying that one has seen combat action, including medals, when this is simply not the case. Particularly over the past 15 years, I have met and conversed with a number of true warriors (Congressional Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Navy Cross, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, etc.) and found virtually all of these warrior heros to be humble/understated, truly unique individuals.

Although I have no problem with anyone wearing a military jacket with patches, for me it is a personal turn off unless the patches represent actual experience. I recall one TFL member buying an A-2 repro for his dad with patches that coincided with his dad's military experience, which I thought was a wonderful thing to do.

Hi Fanch. I wasn't meaning to single out any particular comment from the other thread. This whole thing really started with me being anal about repro accuracy, but then I was worried that if people thought I was 'stealing valor', that I would be a douchebag.

I totally agree with you that wearing any kind of medal would be a huge 'no no', and I would never do that.

When I replied to Deacon's comment above, what I was trying to say was that since a real ex-military pilot would be unlikely to ever wear his flight jacket around town, maybe just the act of wearing a really accurate repro about town myself, would instantly mark me out as being 'not the real thing', and therefore not a problem? i dunno, that's just kind of the train of thought I was having.

 

[Fanch]

One of the companies that is reproducing various jackets with patches is G&B. As I said earlier, I have absolutely no problem with that at all but just not my cup of tea. While I was on active duty as a flight surgeon in the USN, I would have loved to have been attached to a F-4 fighter squadron on an aircraft carrier, in which case I would have worn my G-1 with the patches even after separation from active duty service. However, I was sent to the Naval Air station in Olathe Kansas, of all places for the Navy, and wore my G-1 with only my name tag until my G-1 was stolen from Parkland Hospital in Dallas while I was a resident.

 

[Big J]

Finally got round to taking photos of the patches.

Here are the patches for the MA-1's. Above are the SAC patches, below are the 555th TFS patches.


The patch I've misplaced is for the 307th Strategic Bomb Wing flying B-52's out of Thailand '70-'75 I think. Anyway, I just bought another.


And while I'm posting, here are the USN patches I mentioned.
Above VF-96 and CVA-64 (think Duke Cunningham), and below VF-111 and CV-34 (which just says F-8's in Vietnam to me).


All of these USN patches could be total fakes rather than genuine period pieces, but I'm satisfied that they are all hand made, they have no plastic backings, and were maybe made in Japan during the war, who knows?

 

[thor]

When the Navy recently sent me to Yokosuka, I stumbled upon a Buzz Rickson store right outside the base. Great store with all sorts of BR stuff, including some very cool patched-up jackets. Nylon and cotton jackets really look good with period-correct squadron/unit insignia. Their catalog also has some awesome patched jackets (an excellent photo reference!). IMHO, I think your idea for the 'Nam era MA-1 would look very cool.

 

[Deacon211]

Big J, I think in the end it just comes down to how you feel about it.

Many people in the military feel very strongly, particularly about things like wings, which are usually hard earned. But it's hard to have a repro jacket that's authentic without them.

I guess personally I'd have to admit that I'd look a bit funny at someone with a patched up jacket. And yet, if I talked to them and came to understand that they were wearing it as a tribute to unsung heroes of the past, it would be hard to find real fault with it. I think that'd be particularly true if they really put forth an effort to get the jacket right.

The big issue then, is how do you wear that opinion on your sleeve, so to speak?

I think when all is said and done, you're going to have to decide if you personally feel like you are doing these old forgotten pilots justice. If so, then I'd wear the jacket proudly. You may need to endure the occasional stare and the possibility of offending someone. But, if you feel what you are doing is right, then who's to say otherwise?

If the wings issue is a sticking point with you (and it probably is the thing most likely to cause offense), I like the idea of weathering the heck out of the leather name tag so that there is only the merest suggestion of wings left.

That's actually not at all unrealistic. Especially when you would wear your name tag under your flight gear, the foil on some of those tags would become unrecognizable after a few years.


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[Deacon211]

Oh, forgot to mention...love the patch collection!


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[TXFlyGuy]

Although I have no problem with anyone wearing a military jacket with patches, for me it is a personal turn off unless the patches represent actual experience. I recall one TFL member buying an A-2 repro for his dad with patches that coincided with his dad's military experience, which I thought was a wonderful thing to do.

The particular individual, highly decorated for his WWII combat service, was extremely reluctant to wear the jacket. He felt like it was "bragging", even though he earned every decoration. The jacket is being worn by him today, in eternity, never to be removed. Just like the artillery shrapnel that is imbedded in his hip.