Passive Resistance?

[Flat Foot Floey]

American banker J.P. Morgan considered character the number one criterion for making a loan. There were other criteria of course, but if character was lacking there was very little chance of him approving a loan no matter what else the borrower had.

This opens the door for all kind of misuse of their power and arbitrariness. Who can tell if people have a good character? By the way they look (likable and friendly= gets the loan, grumpy face doesn't get it)?

The people who decide are only humans too. So they can fail.

 

[Edward]

Sadly most people don't have the chance to resist. The way our system is constituted, unless you're near the top, they've got you where they want you - In the crapper, on minumum wage, so tired that you can barely think about getting up tomorrow, let alone ways to resist.

I resist. But I don't think it's possible to resist passively. Resistance must be active; in my view it's a logical fallacy to suggest it can be otherwise.

I can list the ways I resist, but that's pointless. If you have a garden, why aren't you growing food in it? Why don't you mend clothes rather than buy new ones? Why do most people never cook at home? If you save less than 20%, why? How often do you assess your life and habits, and work out what you really need, and whether you're doing stuff for yourself, or to keep up with the Jones's? etc etc etc. The problem with resistance is that it requires work, and a rational - constant - reappraisal of oneself and one's habits. Most are not willing.

Take the sadomasochism away from Gandhi's ideas, and you have the perfect form of resistance - peaceful, active, non-co-operation.

bk

I believe the term "passive" is employed here not in the sense of "inactive", but in the sense of "non-violent". Otherwise, though, you're absolutely right. The concept of the 'social contract' was a nice one for the birth of the state, but it doesn't carry any longer as there really is no other option. Unless you're Mr Sealand, but I suspect he must have had a bit of money behind him to be able to pull that off...

 

[Feraud]

The problem with resistance is that it requires work, and a rational - constant - reappraisal of oneself and one's habits. Most are not willing.

Exactly.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Apathy is indeed the root of the problem. Most people listen to a discussion like this and say, in the words of Howard Beale, "Please! At least leave us alone in our living rooms, let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won’t say anything. Just leave me alone!”

Before anything can ever change, before one tiny lick of real, meaningful progress will *ever* be made, people have to get *mad.* But getting mad rocks the boat, getting mad takes too much effort, getting mad is so, like, uncool, dood. Because when you're mad, you are pushed, inexorably, toward the next step -- taking action to get up off the couch and actually do something about your anger.

Unless, of course, you can be lulled back into your catatonic stupor by platitudes and possessions and popular culture. That's right, look into the screen. See the pretty pictures. Hear the pretty music. Everything's gonna be all right. You *like* things the way they are. The Boys From Marketing wouldn't lie to you, would they now?

 

[MissMittens]

I also find it hard to put the onus on the borrower when every bank in America, every mortgage lender, every government agency and every media outlet was telling them to do it.

It happens I have been involved in real estate for almost 40 years. When they started handing out mortgages like candy my first thought was "this goes against hundreds of years of banking experience and sound banking practice. Yet, all the best banks are doing it. The government backed mortgage insurers approve of it. All the regulators are ok with it. So are they crazy, or am I? There must be something new here that I don't know about".

It turns out there was something wrong. The point is, if the biggest banks in the world said it was ok, the government said it was ok, the media said it was ok, how is a first time home buyer to know there is something wrong?

I put the onus on the financial industry leaders who literally made billions, and on the regulators who spend their days surfing for porn then leave their government jobs to go to work for the big banks a twice the salary , not the poor shmos who lost their houses and had their lives ruined.

Exactly. Thank you for your insight as an "insider", so to speak. I was a first time buyer......got caught.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

My garden is overlooked by a small block of flats. This gives people a view over my garden, of course. I am regularly ridiculed by kids and their parents hanging out of their windows laughing at the dork digging and planting things over the weekend, listening to cricket on the radio.

It is certainly considered laughable that someone would grow vegetables. My garden is the only productive one in our row of 6. I think probably my father's immediately postwar generation was the last to fully engage with the idea of gardening. Possibly that was the effect of the long-term rationing and extreme poverty we had in Britain in the postwar era. I've had the discussion too many times to count - "Why bother? Those potatoes only cost £3 per bag (I grow heirloom varieties) in the shop." My only answer is that I can save that £3 (more than that, actually as each seed potato will produce at least 2 packets-worth), and get out of the system a little sooner. My only purpose in life now is to have fun, and leave the system asap.

I always imagined that taking the argument to the pocketbook (where, rightfully, most people's thoughts drift most frequently) would be effective. But folks generally just think I'm mad. My second argument is a psychological one. I cannot overstate the benefits, the feeling of success and productivity, that come from growing something from seed and eventually eating that produce. If you've had a shitty day at work, to come home and gather some vegetables that you grew is a real mood-lifter.

bk

 

[MissMittens]

I think it's a great idea to grow your own food. I know that in the modern era, with space being more limited, you can't grow for all your needs, but homegrown non-processed food just tastes so much, well, better

 

[Feraud]

I cannot overstate the benefits, the feeling of success and productivity, that come from growing something from seed and eventually eating that produce. If you've had a shitty day at work, to come home and gather some vegetables that you grew is a real mood-lifter.

bk

Absolutly! My wife and I have been doing small scale gardening for a few years. Tomatoes, basil, pepper (sweet & hot), etc. We're discussing growing grapes. The benefits are wonderful.

A large space is not necessary to begin. A moderate sized pot or two will yield satisifying results. A friend has a window box and grows herbs. Some city residents have established gardens on the rooftops of apartment buildings. There is always a way.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

In my opinion, this feeling of unproductiveness and lack of success is at the root of many of the ills that ail people, particularly in cities, today. The kind of jobs many people do in our system (often in offices) lead to many of these feelings. It's hard to feel productive when shuffling papers, working on a front desk, routing calls, etc. etc. From this stems frustration, low self-esteem, feelings of worthlessness.

Finding something, anything, to increase one's sense of worth can be an astonishing liberator. And from that liberation of the mind (the "soul", as our religious friends might put it), a better life and worldview can emerge. All very hippy.

And this is where the resistance comes in. Our way of doing things has inserted all the gadgets, trinkets and fripperies to distract people from engaging with why they feel worthless. "I can't be unproductive if I've gathered enough cash to buy the latest gadget!" Of course, one then needs to keep on top of what the latest gadget is. having one model too old, you are back in the worthless group again. It really is insidious, because that's the way the system is designed. People who think too much are not playing the game, and that must be avoided.

bk

 

[sheeplady]

I think it's a great idea to grow your own food. I know that in the modern era, with space being more limited, you can't grow for all your needs, but homegrown non-processed food just tastes so much, well, better

Actually, if you live in the right climate, you can feed a family of four all of their veggies for the year out of a space about the size of a 2-stall garage (with intensive gardening): http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Feeding+a+family+of+four+from+the+garden.-a0133411475

While that's not saying everyone can do it, lots of families could feed themselves out of their front and/or back yards (for those who own a space as large as a garage) or out of 1-2 community gardening plots (for city and apartment dwellers who have access to community gardens). If you get farther up north, you need more space because you can't use intensive practices as easily because of late and early frosts.

 

[Undertow]

...Before anything can ever change...people have to get *mad.*

Perhaps Americans will get there when this Midwest drought hits them hard in the wallet? Certainly, I doubt it - I forsee people queueing for McDonald's instead, or perhaps just paying the extra .75 for the prepackaged frozen entree. Then in two years it will rise to 1.25 more. And in three years, if we're not already in the grips of a full scale depression, people will spend 45% of their budget on food alone and like it.

But still...maybe this drought will create increased food prices, which will get enough people angry that they will at least consider growing their own food. As BK has pointed out, I think gardening is an excellent form of "resistance". Self-sufficiency is most definitely not an attribute which Western Civilization is often accused.

 

[Undertow]

Yes BK and Edward, you've both touched on my idea for this thread. It doesn't have to necessarily be an employment thing or a matter of active vs inactive. What's more important is seeing a pattern, a common thread, a failure in the system which in and of itself seems too big to fix on its own. Thus, how do we resist it? How do we change it?

I'd used an example of a clerk - let's say Soviet this time. He/She knows what the transfer papers mean, and she knows they're wrong. But to speak out may be death, and to follow orders is death for someone else - so what does she do? It's so very easy to say, "I'd stand up and fight!" Sure, for five minutes until the KGB stopped by your house that night and you were "transferred" for your effort. The solution - figure out how to manipulate the papers to cause a SNAFU down the line. You keep processing, the people are sent to all sorts of incorrect places, and you give them a few more days. It's not much, but it's something.

In BK's example, I could sit in front of the tele all night and watch the Olympics, eat my Smart Ones frozen dinners, and sigh deeply at the thought of getting back up in the morning - meanwhile, I'm two dollars deeper in debt with each breath I take. The Solution - start a garden, start a savings account no matter how humble, mend my own clothes, get out and about, maybe meet the neighbors, start caring about the community.

I'm not saying that everyone in Western civilization is a greasy cow who will buy whatever you thrust in their face, and eat the worst slop you can pile on their plate...but as a collective, we're all in pretty sad shape.

And it's not like I would suggest we could fix this or that, or make something better, but in case anyone's been watching the news lately, civilization seems to be coming to a point where people aren't happy anymore. The new trinkets aren't pleasing us. There are real problems and prime time television doesn't have the answers anymore. It might behoove us to formulate ways to improve, aka resist, our plight.

 

[Johnny de-Lux]

the secret is ..stay in bed..spend money..that's not yours..in other words do nothing ...

 

[Flicka]

In my opinion, this feeling of unproductiveness and lack of success is at the root of many of the ills that ail people, particularly in cities, today. The kind of jobs many people do in our system (often in offices) lead to many of these feelings. It's hard to feel productive when shuffling papers, working on a front desk, routing calls, etc. etc. From this stems frustration, low self-esteem, feelings of worthlessness.

Finding something, anything, to increase one's sense of worth can be an astonishing liberator. And from that liberation of the mind (the "soul", as our religious friends might put it), a better life and worldview can emerge. All very hippy.

And this is where the resistance comes in. Our way of doing things has inserted all the gadgets, trinkets and fripperies to distract people from engaging with why they feel worthless. "I can't be unproductive if I've gathered enough cash to buy the latest gadget!" Of course, one then needs to keep on top of what the latest gadget is. having one model too old, you are back in the worthless group again. It really is insidious, because that's the way the system is designed. People who think too much are not playing the game, and that must be avoided.

bk

I'm thinking about getting a small patch to grow vegetables on. I live in a flat, but we have this system called "colony gardens" here. It was launched after WWI when people in the cities actually starved (we weren't in the war but the shipping blockade enforced by the combatants hit us hard too). The idea was that city dwellers would get a small patch and be able to sustain themselves at least partially in desperate times. It has survived to this day, although now it's more for fun than a serious survival strategy. I could get something between 30-200 square metres for a fee of approximately £30-100 a year. It'd be hard work but I really like the idea of being more self-reliant. I could get a patch close enough to get to it on my bike in about ten minutes.

I had an epiphany a few years ago. I had been living with a guy for years and years and it wasn't good so finally I broke free. I was left with nothing. Seriously, only two bags of clothes and no savings (that's what I got for paying the bills for years). It was strangely liberating. I actually liked being thrifty, and while I now make about (or slightly more, actually) twice what I did then, I know I could cut back if I wanted to. I also have enough savings to manage without income for a year or two, which gives me an enormous sense of freedom. Ever since, I've been a little paranoid about not being tied down by things or placing too much importance on comforts and things.

My writing is also something that feels like fighting back. Maybe I'll never sell (though I should probably submit something before I give up ), but at least it's working towards my dreams. It also helps me rise above the everyday drudgery and remember that I have dreams.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

"Colony Gardens" or allotments (land which has been allotted to you), as we call them, are - or were - very common in this country too. I remember helping my father out on his when I was a kid. They are, sadly, seen as an extravagance in London, where land and particularly council-owned land is such a valuable commodity.

Check out what happened to the allotments in Stratford to build the Olympic park, along with the public playing/leisure fields. The current extravaganza is supposed to be a boon for the locals … the demise of their single way of being self-reliant (many are in tower blocks in that region, and those gardens that people do have are absolutely tiny!) can only be seen as a disaster. Of course, folks like me would suggest this is all a planned part of the greater scheme of things - spend more!

bk

 

[Stanley Doble]

This opens the door for all kind of misuse of their power and arbitrariness. Who can tell if people have a good character? By the way they look (likable and friendly= gets the loan, grumpy face doesn't get it)?

The people who decide are only humans too. So they can fail.

That has nothing to do with it. If you are loaning money as a business there are really only 2 things you need to know:

1) Is this person going to repay the loan as agreed?

2) If he doesn't, how do I get my money back?

The first question is one of character. Only one person needs to worry about repaying a loan. If the borrower is worried, the lender doesn't need to worry. If the borrower doesn't give a damn, the lender has to worry.

Then, does the borrower have the wherewithal to pay the loan? Does he have a job, or some productive business that will allow him to make payments and still have enough to live on? Once again, we come to character. Some people put their obligations first. They pay their bills on time and then spend the rest on themselves. Others look after their own needs first and if there is not enough left to pay the bills, so much the worse for their creditors.

Then there is the question of collateral. Worst case, does the borrower have something of value that can be pledged, and if necessary sold, to repay the loan? Here again character comes into it. Would you loan money on a business if you thought there was a good chance the borrower would strip it of cash and assets, then let it go bankrupt if things got tough? Would you loan money on a house if you knew the borrower would neglect it, eventually stop making payments and leave it in ruins?

The way you tell if someone is of good character is by looking at their record. Credit reports, employment record, all that sort of thing.

In Morgan's time these things were not available. He had to do is own investigating and financial analysis and use his own judgement. He made loans to some pretty unlikely people too. He sunk a lot of money in Nicola Tesla's experiments at Wardenclyffe New Jersey. Tesla was the prototype of the mad scientist and one of the least sociable people you could meet. But he was a hard worker and a very smart scientist with a great record of achievement. His last invention was the high voltage AC power system that made the Niagara Falls power station possible. It made millions for Westinghouse and others. Who knew what his next invention might be worth? A man worth backing no matter how quirky and unsociable.

That particular deal never worked out but a lot of them did. He was a venture capitalist of the machine age. He backed a lot of new startups in his time and was responsible for launching some of the biggest industrial concerns of the 20th century.

 

[Stanley Doble]

As far as people wising up... it's already happening. Practically everyone is aware of the difference between healthy eating and junk food even if we have a hard time giving up junk food. This awareness simply didn't exist before the 1980s except for a handful of health nuts and hippies. I haven't heard the term health nut in 40 years. Can you believe there was a time when being concerned with your health and fitness was considered eccentric to the point of cultishness?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Bernarr Macfadden, the original Health Nut

 

[TomS]

Interesting conversation. I think the working class, while harder to define today than 30 years ago, is primed for change. I would even suggest that the only thing missing from the equation is the leader.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I view it sort of like the Reformation. (Sounds mad, I know). Leaders are un-necessary (and counterproductive), there must be personal commune with resistance as the Reformers avowed personal commune with God. Where the Reformation failed (and it failed spectacularly) was in simply replacing one set of leaders - the Bishop of Rome and his underlings - with another set - the King of England and his underlings. Reformation was co-opted by "leaders" and used for political ends (the rechanneling of Peter's Pence into Henry's pocketbook). Status quo re-established. There is a great worry that any resistance movement, and particularly a non-violent one - will simply be co-opted for their own ends by some "leaders" who will emerge. Look at the example of India - total, utter, unmitigated disaster.

I quite like the anarchy of the occupy movement for this reason. There is nothing more scary to an established power structure than loads of people complaining and shouting and doing something against something they disagree with, but with no apparent internal power structure, and no apparent coherence of reasons why. Imagine if everyone who could do so started growing their own vegetables! I would bet there'd be some laws rushed through to designate home-growers as "farmers" and tax them on what they produce, or make home-growing illegal, forcible concreting-over of back gardens etc. etc. The business/farming/greengrocer lobby is too strong for government to do anything else.

Unfortunately, as discussed above, this kind of resistance is doomed to failure, because people won't work hard enough at it.

bk