Papers on potenial Hess release

[Twitch]

But Hess did receive a merciful sentence from the Nuremberg court which based its justice on evidence rather than hysterical emotions. Where extremists would have cried for death the court decided life was punishment enough. Hess was never involved in any military decision of the Reich. He was found innocent of war crimes and crimes against humanity simply because he wasn't ever involved.

Hess was messmerized by Hitler in regard to his views on government, not evils against anyone in particular. At the university he studied political science, history, economics, and geopolitics. Nazism is socialism and pushed national expansion, and state control of the economy. Evil is not defined by ideology, it is defined by the acts of men. Nazism became evil when people like Hitler propagated anti-semitism and genocide.

As mentioned the same common sense approach for Speer was handed down as well as successor to Hitler, Admiral Donitz.

Emotional vengence on the part of the European Allies at the end of WW I is part of what festered into ripe conditions for Hitler later. Why would we not learn from that mistake and move on? There were many, many individuals indicted at Nuremberg and the sentences varied widely from acquital, to some years in prision, to death. It was not a pre-determened farce.

 

[Edward]

Emotional vengence on the part of the European Allies at the end of WW I is part of what festered into ripe conditions for Hitler later. Why would we not learn from that mistake and move on? There were many, many individuals indicted at Nuremberg and the sentences varied widely from acquital, to some years in prision, to death. It was not a pre-determened farce.

Yes, I agree with you. I'm always uncomfortable with the idea of war crimes trilas when it's only the loser who faces them, and quite often the "crimes" they are charged with are things that the victor did too, the key difference being they lost. Of course, those responsible for the worst excesses of the Nazi regime including the death camps rightly faced trial, and I agree that from what we can tell at this remove, they received a fair trial - or at least as close to as was possibled at the time. I tend to lean to the view that the trial of Saddam Hussein could have learned something from Nurembourg, as that certainly seemed little more than a show trial with a pre-determined outcome.

Referring to the quote from an Allied leader above, it'd be interesting actually to see a dramatic recreation of the Nurembourg trials with the shoe on the other foot: what would have happened if Hitler had won? Who would have faced trial on the allied side, and for what?

I firmly believe in Life without the possibility of parole

Yes, I'm the same. I would favour this over the death penalty in any circumstances, myself - but that's a whole nother debate and one not appropriate for the FL.

on the other hand those documents sound like the Russians not only wanted to imprison Hess but make his life a living hell, and that I am not so hot with.

Quite. When we sentence someone to a term of imprisonment, the punishment is and should be their incracaration, and not a further punishment within prison walls (any appropriate disciplinary measures as censure for further misbehaviour aside).

I understand where you're coming from. The fact is though, war is ugly and people die. Civilian casualties are, unfortunately part of war. And wether we like it or not, we live in a world governed by the aggresive use of force. It always has and it always will.

There has to be a realistic approach, but nevertheless it seems to me that human propensity towards violence doesn't mean we should give up trying to follow a better way. Civilian casualties do occur in any war, and with the nature of war in the twentieth century shifting away from defined battlefields and into urban, guerilla combat, civilian casualties are that much more likely. There's a whole world of difference, however, between incidental, collateral damage (how I loathe that term!) and deliberate targetting of civilian areas as the primary purpose of an attack, designed to break morale - as occured with both the Blitz on London and the attacks on Dresden.

 

[Twitch]

I see much I agree with there but cannot completely in the concept of "if you're the victor your war crimes are excused."

Here's why. In Nuremberg the accused were tried on 4 counts.
1. Crime against peace
2. Waging aggressive war
3. War crimes
4. Crimes against humanity.

Crimes against peace were simply the rather vague international law that starting a war, invading a country or simply waging aggressive war was a crime--this is where you can apply the terms to both sides after one commences a war. In defending wouldn't a nation be aggressive? But the instigator is the one that can be bamed.

War crimes come from violating previous defining conventions that spelled outwhat was acceptable and what was not. The Hague and Geneva Conventions are examples. They delved into humane treatment of POWs and non-combatants and prohibited torture plus the reprisals on innocents or execution by military forces.

These are things the Allies never engaged in.

And for crimes against humanity, well, we know that mass murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, genocide and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds are some of these.

Once again the Allies never engaged in such acts.


And here is a bit more into the concept that Hess was murdered http://www.pomsinoz.com/forum/poms-sun/24621-hess-murdered.html

 

[KL15]

If you wish to say it as "if you're the victor your war crimes are excused" that's completely up to you. But to the victor go the spoils. I'm proud to be and American. I'm proud of my British and French bloodline. And I will not sit by as American soldiers are compared to Nazis. The right side won. That's it. The Nazis in Germany were crushed, the Fascists in Italy were crushed, and the Militarists in Japan were crused. And surely justice has never been better served.

 

[Twitch]

Hey KL 15 I encourage you to seek out information about the Japanese war crimes trials, what led up to them and especially the aftermath. You will be stunned.

And don't get riled. Soldiers from all countries mostly served with honor for their countries just as we do in the US. There's no way I can fault a German farm boy draftee grunt trying to stay alive by whatever means was possible.

 

[KL15]

Not getting riled. Will gladly seek out the info you advised. I don't blame the average soldier for anything. I blame Germany for nothing today. I'm sure they are great people. I have to deal with many today blaming America first today. Not sure if this was your intent, if not I apologize.

 

[griffer]

...he was closely associated with a tyranical murderous dictator, and deserves no remorse and no mercy...

That logic would have hung millions; I don't think was enough rope left in Germany in 1945 to mete out this 'guilt by association' brand of 'justice'.

Remember, KL15, there are shades of grey in everything, and anyone who says otherwise is selling you something, often jingoistic propaganda at that.

Ever read this?

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Think about the truth of it and the irony of the source, especially today.

 

[KL15]

I completely understand that the citizens of Germany wanted bread and work. As I have stated on this board. Germans are good people, they have much to be proud of. The fact that they themselves tried their best to erase any trace of Nazism is enough proof for me. I have not, and I will not, blame the ordinary German citizen who is simply trying to earn a living for the atrocity of Nazi Germany. But Adolf Hitler, Rudolph Hess, Herman Goering, Erwin Rommel, and a host of others I hold completly responsible. None of these men deserve a minute's worth of sympathy. As I stated earlier, at the end of it all, after all the bloodshed. After all the losses of life and limb. The Nazis in Germany were crushed, the Facsitis in Italy were crushed, and the Militarists in Japan were crushed. All of these groups held their citizens hostage in a climate of fear and repression. All were destroyed and surely justice has never been better served.

 

[Story]

As good a place as any -

Pictured for the first time: The cabin in which Hitler's deputy Rudolph Hess hanged himself as secret dossier deepens mystery over monster's death

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oments-Hitler-deputys-life.html#ixzz1pTQpuArZ

 

[Stanley Doble]

I seem to recall the Russians were adamant about keeping Hess in Spandau because without prisoners, they would have no reason to keep the prison open. And the prison was the only excuse they had for occupying that sector of Berlin.

 

[Espee]

I heard a claim that at one point, the Soviets might have been ready to release Hess, but then it was the US who vetoed the idea. (Implying there were secrets he could reveal, which had to be kept secret.)
I don't know if there are facts to back that up.

 

[MisterCairo]

I may be wrong as my knowledge on the holocast is not perfect, but I thought Hess was a POW before the death camps started.

Harry

Opening an old wound I know, but while this statement may be technically correct (viz a vis the camps) to suggest that nothing amounting to genocide had occurred prior to Hess's departure is hardly accurate. Some brief quotes from two wikipedia entries on Hess and the Final Solution:


On 10 May 1941 at about 18:00, Hess took off from Augsburg in a Messerschmitt Bf 110D (radio code VJ+OQ) that he had equipped with drop tanks to increase its range.

Mass killings of about one million Jews occurred before the plans of the Final Solution were fully implemented in 1942, but it was only with the decision to eradicate the entire Jewish population that the extermination camps were built and industrialized mass slaughter of Jews began in earnest.


Hess was the Deputy Fuhrer, don't forget. That he wasn't the architect that Speer was, or that the formal plan wasn't written out until Wansee in early 42 hardly make Hess a sort of bystander because he'd flown the coop in 41.

Life in prison? Lucky, says I!

 

[Warden]

The BBC did a news feature on Rudolf Hess today. Click here

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Life sentence is not too much for a high ranked Nazi imo. I don't want to discuss the right or wrong of death penalty (hello politics banned rule)

I have just read the daily mail link with the pictures of the place where they found his body. The letter has some spelling mistakes. Could be a fake OR due to his old age.
Hess is regarded as some kidn of martyr by german neonazis. They do parades for him every oncve in a while. (But most of the time they get stopped by anti nazis demonstrations) It would be really not helpful to sympathize with him in public just because he was old.