Panama Hat Thread

[JC Montecristi Hat]

One thing I want to talk about is that there are more Montecristis hats in stores than are actually produced, I am not talking about Panama exporting more Panama hats than Ecuador itself; that would be another matter.
At the end of 1800 the difference between a Montecristi and Cuenca hat did not exist, the hats were woven in the same way and the same straw was used, this was obtained from Manabi. In the 90's everything changed with the appearance of the weave Brisa, Torcido and Crochet, the straw began to be bought in Santa Elena. People have in mind that the Montecristi hat is a llano (plain) weave made with natural straw, but straw can determine where it comes from, mainly its texture. Only connoisseurs can determine if it is Cuenca or Montecristi, but sometimes it can be complicated, you would have to have a Montecristi on hand to compare. Most of the Calados are made in Cuenca, even the group of weavers who make the fine Montecristi Calados (the best in the world) don't make the Montecristi Custom Hat Works, they haven't made wide brim hats in years.
As I know Montecristi, the landscapes and weavers that they have shown in their social networks do not correspond to Montecristi, but now they have made it public I will leave you an image where they confirm it.
I don't blame them, it's cheaper to buy in Cuenca, many others buy there, All these hats are woven in Biblian in the province of Cañar. In Biblian there are many more weavers than all Montecristi and it is not a main activity it is only an extra income for most weavers

 

[tropicalbob]

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This gigantic Panama came to me due to the kindness of @Bill Hughes
This is my second hat from Montecristi Custom Hat works in Santa Fe. They know how to make a nice hat!

The crown is 4 7/8” at the front and 4 3/4” at the back. The brim is 4” wide.

It’s a huge size, too big for my hat measuring device to measure. Without any shims it fits nice and gentle, but I’ll add a single shim to the back to keep it in place in a breeze. Thanks again, Bill, it’s a terrific hat!

That hat suits you down to the ground. Looks great on you.

 

[JC Montecristi Hat]

Hello, today I will bring some more information, it´s discussed in forums and facebook groups the following:

How to recognize an authentic Montecristi?

What is fine, fine, superfine? In Ecuador, nor in any other country do we have this clear? Or is it a myth created by foreign sellers?

Are WPSI really useful? Does it make sense to trade based on WPSI?




How to recognize an authentic Montecristi?


There are 3 factors to consider:

· The start of the weave made with the first 8 straws, this is called the crab, in the case of a Cuenca have star shaped, you see all this at the top of the crown

· The number of rings on the crown should not be less than 6

· The Remate must be A2, that is to say, it must be done by weaving 2 straws. You can see this at the end of the brim.


This only applies to the original Montecristi weave, grade 13 and up, normally from grade 14, but according to demand there are 10 and 12 grades, were created to get a cheaper Montecrisitis hat. These are Montecristi as long as it has the other 2 factors but since they don't have the 6 rings are not entitled to a DENOMINATION OF ORIGIN, which is what officially certifies that it is a Montecristi, but they are still woven in Montecristi.


What is fine, fine, superfine? Nobody really agrees? Or is it a myth created by foreign sellers?

The Ecuadorian government recognizes three main types of hats

Clasico or Grueso 13-18 grados or puntos

Fino 19-25 grados or puntos

Superfino 26-35 grados or puntos

Additional also recognizes

Extrafino 36-45 grados or puntos

Trafino from 46-∞ grados or puntos


Anything too far away from this is wrong


Does it make sense to trade based on WPSI? Are WPSI really useful?



It was very common for the rings to determine prices, but since Brent Black established the method of counting the weaves or the points, wpi, this method was used to buy hats from the weavers and sellers of Montecristi, now this is a worldwide standard.

The wpsi was his method of selling, a way to get a greater return on his investment.

So most of the foreign sellers put different prices according to the wpsi of each Panama hat, but would it be fair to pay more for something that has the same cost? Example: from 20-22 grades or wpi the weaver receives the same payment and the price of the finishes is the same for all these grades.

Because as a buyer you have to pay more for something that even the weaver cannot predict?

He can predict at most the horizontal weaves but not the vertical ones, mainly when they are fine hats.

The wpsi are useful for collectors, to compare how fine a hat is with respect to another one, but 20x19 and 20x20 there are no differences that you can appreciate without counting them, you can't even know with the naked eye if a hat has 22 grade without counting them, unless you compare it with a 20 grade hat and then count the weaves, in that case you will appreciate a difference more notorious.

In short, for the more traditional Montecristi all 3 factors are important, to know if something was woven in Montecristi you only have to consider 2 factors.


What would be the most important factor? The beginning of the weaving made with 8 straws, the one with the shape of a crab.

You can see a weave with more than 6 rings, finely woven, the Remate made in an A2 way, but it doesn't have the start made with the 8 straws. So it is a hat woven in Piura, Peru, I have seen several of these in Cuenca brought by foreigners to be finished there to look like the Montecristi.

Even the straw from Santa Elena, Ecuador is exported to Colombia, Peru and Guatemala.

 

[alanfgag]

An interesting post... thank you.

 

[Bill Hughes]

Went to work last night and was sent home for two weeks. Yesterday, my daughter was in close proximity to someone who had visited their grandparent who passed away from covid-19. My daughter works in the medical industry and is back at work today. So I’ve got some time on my hands.

Does anyone here know the proper name for this Panama weave?

 

[Bamaboots]

Went to work last night and was sent home for two weeks. Yesterday, my daughter was in close proximity to someone who had visited their grandparent who passed away from covid-19. My daughter works in the medical industry and is back at work today. So I’ve got some time on my hands.

Does anyone here know the proper name for this Panama weave?

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Bill, I believe that’s what is called the “Leghorn”. I don’t have one but Alan does and maybe a few others around. Most unusual weave and color. Enjoy that one.

 

[carouselvic]

This is not a leghorn.

 

[Tukwila]

Went to work last night and was sent home for two weeks. Yesterday, my daughter was in close proximity to someone who had visited their grandparent who passed away from covid-19. My daughter works in the medical industry and is back at work today. So I’ve got some time on my hands.

Does anyone here know the proper name for this Panama weave?

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It's different than anything I have, Bill. It could be from a different area, even a different country, or just a weaver who likes to do it their own way...

 

[Bamaboots]

Does anyone here know the proper name for this Panama weave?

Well, Bill we’ve been told it’s not Leghorn but no other information is forthcoming, so far. Gotta love being told what it’s not, but not what it is. Leghorn is the straw from a particular Italian wheat. The only time I’ve seen leghorn referenced was toward hats with a similar weave pattern as yours and obviously made an assumption. My bad.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/is-this-leghorn-straw.47999/#post-1278109

 

[Bill Hughes]

Well, Bill we’ve been told it’s not Leghorn but no other information is forthcoming, so far. Gotta love being told what it’s not, but not what it is. Leghorn is the straw from a particular Italian wheat. The only time I’ve seen leghorn referenced was toward hats with a similar weave pattern as yours and obviously made an assumption. My bad.
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https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/is-this-leghorn-straw.47999/#post-1278109

Yes, I also have a leghorn. Being told what it is not does indeed help buy reducing the possibilities.

 

[JC Montecristi Hat]

Hello
I will continue to provide relevant information

To be able to issue a denomination of origin, in addition to complying with the 3 factors in my previous publication, there are 3 other factors that must be met in order to issue this document

1- the straw has to have its origin in Pile, Montecristi in general and the Aromo that is in Manta

2- the person who weaves the hat must be from one of these places

3- the artisan who gives the finishes must be born and have his workshop in Montecristi.

For the last point I cannot give certificates of origin.

Now that straw is better, Pile straw is the best for weaving fine hats, according to the technical data, but excellent hats can be woven with any straw from those places, there are differences, yes but they are small, only the weaver can feel them but
This does not add any complexity to choosing one straw or another.

Not only does Pile weave fine hats, there are other locations in Montecristi, not as many weavers as Pile specialize in those grades.
If for example you are looking for many hats above 30 grades, you will finish your stock search in Pile.

I will leave some images about the beginning of the weaving, in essence it is the same for all grades, only the size of the crab or the star will change.

Montecristi hats can not be dyed, at least not yet, the dye comes out or not fixed well. The straw has many processes that make the dye not fix, I do not know if trying other types of dyes could be dyed.
The hats from Cuenca have less processes, they are dyed with aniline. When peroxide is used in the process, the hat becomes very fragile. This is why they have the reputation of being delicate.
Montecristis hats usually have 10 cm crowns and 5-10 cm brim, there are a few 11 or 12 cm crowns.
Crowns higher than these measures in Montecristi do not exist, at least for now, I am the first to make a block of wood to weave a 5 inch hat in Montecristi, I will leave some pictures, this is for a customer. Cuenca the most I have seen is 12.5 cm, Peru probably has bigger blocks.

With all my indications you will be able to identify what you are buying, it is better to buy with knowledge.

 

[seewhatididther]

Hey folks, it seems like people err on the side of vintage and/or harder to find hats, which are admittedly, intimidating for a beginner. I’d love to get a panama fedora for the summer. Is this Center dent Panama Fedora from Stetson decent? Are there any better options in this price range? The hemp Stetsons better or worse? I like that there are some colors but the weave looks less attractive to my rookie eye. Thanks!

 

[Tukwila]

Hey folks, it seems like people err on the side of vintage and/or harder to find hats, which are admittedly, intimidating for a beginner. I’d love to get a panama fedora for the summer. Is this Center dent Panama Fedora from Stetson decent? Are there any better options in this price range? The hemp Stetsons better or worse? I like that there are some colors but the weave looks less attractive to my rookie eye. Thanks!

Are you able to go to a hat shop near you to try on hats... well, after the pandemic is over?

That's a decent hat, but I'd get it from a shop rather than from Stetson direct... unless you call the outlet store in Garland, TX, and they have one on the cheap in your size. In fact, that's what I do if I was going to by a Stetson straw hat...

Hemp is a different material. Generally heavier, but scads tougher if you think you'll be rough on the hat or routinely get caught in spring or summer downpours. I actually have a hemp cap coming from Well Dressed Head in Sydney, Australia... soon, I hope. I'm going crazy waiting for it.

Be aware, if you see a hat called Shantung Panama or Panama Shantung, that is a machine made paper hat. Fine hat, but be aware. My wife is from Ecuador so I shun paper hats parading as Panama straw... heresy in my book.

 

[belfastboy]

Are you able to go to a hat shop near you to try on hats... well, after the pandemic is over?

That's a decent hat, but I'd get it from a shop rather than from Stetson direct... unless you call the outlet store in Garland, TX, and they have one on the cheap in your size. In fact, that's what I do if I was going to by a Stetson straw hat...

Hemp is a different material. Generally heavier, but scads tougher if you think you'll be rough on the hat or routinely get caught in spring or summer downpours. I actually have a hemp cap coming from Well Dressed Head in Sydney, Australia... soon, I hope. I'm going crazy waiting for it.

Be aware, if you see a hat called Shantung Panama or Panama Shantung, that is a machine made paper hat. Fine hat, but be aware. My wife is from Ecuador so I shun paper hats parading as Panama straw... heresy in my book.

My experience with a Shantung 'straw'....it is not really a hot weather hat. PLastic is not all that cool in summer heat.

 

[Tukwila]

My experience with a Shantung 'straw'....it is not really a hot weather hat. PLastic is not all that cool in summer heat.

It's that heavy coating of shellac they put on them...

 

[seewhatididther]

Are you able to go to a hat shop near you to try on hats... well, after the pandemic is over?

That's a decent hat, but I'd get it from a shop rather than from Stetson direct... unless you call the outlet store in Garland, TX, and they have one on the cheap in your size. In fact, that's what I do if I was going to by a Stetson straw hat...

are you recommending the shop route so I can shop local? See the difference between straw and hemp? Find a flaw-free example?
Thanks!

 

[Tukwila]

are you recommending the shop route so I can shop local? See the difference between straw and hemp? Find a flaw-free example?
Thanks!

Mostly for fit and to see the difference in quality. The outlet is all about price.

 

[seewhatididther]

Mostly for fit and to see the difference in quality. The outlet is all about price.

Is there a better option in/around that price range?? Thanks!

 

[Kubatu]

Could anyone tell me what to expect quality-wise from a K. Dorfzaun hat? I found one NWT on a reselling site for $30, and that seems like an affordable price. It is made in Ecuador, but I assume it isn't the finest material around. I would like to try out a panama hat, but I'm a full time student with limited means, and many of the options are a bit too much for my first hat. Thank you!

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Could anyone tell me what to expect quality-wise from a K. Dorfzaun hat? I found one NWT on a reselling site for $30, and that seems like an affordable price. It is made in Ecuador, but I assume it isn't the finest material around. I would like to try out a panama hat, but I'm a full time student with limited means, and many of the options are a bit too much for my first hat. Thank you!

Can you provide photos?