Original Stetson Handy

[Brad Bowers]

Sure, guys. Also, check out my Derby Deconstruction article if you haven't already.

Two things are an issue with the felt that is produced today. First, unless the right amount of shellac is impregnated into the felt before the dyeing process, the felt won't react or wear the same. Yes, you can add tons of shellac to the inside of the crown after blocking, but not to the brim because both sides of the brim are visible. A properly stiffened Derby is a lot more difficult to block by hand on a wooden block, which is why manufacturers in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries switched to machine blocking. The other issue is that most modern felt is too thick to give the desired streamlined look to the hat. In the US, the thickest felts were generally reserved for equestrian hats, as dressweight Derbies were preferred for most other occasions. Still, the felt weight is a minor quibble compared to the other issues.

Bowler and Derby brims were bound with ribbon to hide the shellac on the raw edge of the hat. Because of the extreme amount of shellac used in the felt, it shows very easily. It's yellowish or whitish, and very unsightly, hence the need to cover it up. Up until the Derby Revival in the 1950s, utmost care was taken to conceal the stitches on the brim binding on both the inside and outside of the curl. From the 1950s onward, however, machine stitching all the way through brim became standard practice for convenience, removing a labor-intensive step of the process, but delivering an inelegant, rather ugly solution. This practice continues today, sadly, and draws one's eye away from whatever other features might be done well.

Modern blocks used for Derbies also tend to have an awkward profile, with none of the panache or elegance of the originals.

Proper D'Orsay curls require a front/rear tolliker, a tool which isn't produced today, and almost impossible to find on the used market.

i don't think that hatters today realize that Derbies are an entirely different creature from most other hats, and should be treated as such in the care of their creation.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[Steph]

Oh, okay, I gotcha now. It's a fairly square-crowned Derby, but not so square as a Cambridge. It's also a crown profile that had some longevity. I've got some Derbies from the '20s and '30s wth a quite-similar profile. Only the brims are different. It's probably around a five-inch crown, or no shorter than 4-¾". Because of the angle of the artist's view, the brim width front and rear could be misleading, looking shorter than it actually is. 1-⅞" might look all right, but you might have to experiment to see what looks best.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

Thank you again, Brad. I appreciate your input.

It seems that the specs are 3 ¾" high with a 1 ⅞" brim. I suppose the question is, how low can the crown be without the hat looking like a beanie? I think 5" is going to be quite too high for me.

I don't mind squaring it some, but I certainly want to retain as much as possible of the derby look without looking like I have a skull cap or a topper on.

 

[Steph]

Check out makers that specialize in replicating old hat styles. For example:

http://www.riverjunction.com/Mens-Hats_c_177.html

http://www.knudsenhats.com/dress-hats.html

Of course, most of the custom hatters discussed at this site could help you too.

Excellent, thank you.

Like I said, I have reached out to Custom Hatters in Buffalo, he provided those pictures.

I had a bowler and a derby on the way (pictures in the Bowler and Derby thread), the derby arrived and I turned it around and sent it back the same day. It was in excellent condition, but only because it had had the sweatband replaced, etc., and the seller didn't know or didn't mention that.

I may end up with a collection, but it will be a collection that I *wear*, regularly.

 

[Steph]

You can't get felt to make a proper Derby anymore, but the biggest problem with custom hatters is not a single damn one of them understands a Derby's proper D'Orsay curl, or even attempts to do it properly. And the brim binding is done all wrong. And if they refer to them as Bowlers and they're an American, then they're ignorant of the hat's history and that explains everything. I wouldn't trust any of them to make a Derby.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

Brad, I've seen rumblings of this here, but is there some hyperbole in that opinion? Which is fine, of course, but if I'm looking to spend what seems like $400-$800 on a beaver felt hat, I will want the correct hat.

What precisely don't they understand, and why wouldn't they even try? They may be difficult, but I'm quite certain that something that was offered as a matter of course starting in the late 1800s can be made today (at what cost? is another question). In my limited experience in looking at milliner tools, they don't strike me as being all that complicated. A link would be fine, of course.

I've spoken briefly with Custom Hatters, possibly to recreate the Handy. I also like this hat from the movie Open Range worn by the character Butler, minus all the BS GQifying, as well...

from http://www.cappelleriamelegari.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4960&language=en

If the hat can't be made correctly, that will certainly lower the amount I am willing to spend.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Maybe some hyperbole, but not much. In that photo, the thickness of the felt and the stitches on the binding are jarring. Dead giveaway it's a modern hat. Why don't hatters care to do it right? My guess is they either don't know or don't care. As for the tools, yes, they aren't complicated, but some, like the front/rear tolliker, are no longer manufactured and aren't available as used items, either.

Part of the problem is the felt. Unless hatters can get the felt, correctly produced, for a Derby, it's not going to look the same. But Winchester and others probably won't change their production runs to experiment to get the felt just right.

Just like the Cavanagh Edge, Derbies are a lost art that felters and hatters won't bother to work to recreate. It's too easy to do it the other way, and the hat-buying public is unaware of what used to be and what could be.

I'm just trying to preserve the historical integrity of the style. Get the hat you want, not the hat I or anyone else tells you to get, but you can grab vintage Derbies all day long off of eBay, made the original way, for far less than a custom hat. Even if you have to replace the sweatband, it's still a cost savings.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[Steph]

Got it. Thank you for your responses.

Looking at the tolliker, well, they may no longer be produced, but sheesh, that would be an easy thing to make. With the proper specs, companies like Big Blue Saw could mill one in stainless steel, very very cheaply. Getting together 10 or 15 (or less) milliners or home hatters that want one, and the price per piece drops significantly. It's not an intricate piece at all.

There are also lots of builders clubs these days that have access to a CNC mill. Maybe that's been explored and I'm an idiot, but in my experience with that stuff, a tolliker seems like a minor piece to have fabricated, given what the guys in the R2D2 clubs have made.

 

[Kirk H.]

Excellent, thank you.

Like I said, I have reached out to Custom Hatters in Buffalo, he provided those pictures.

I had a bowler and a derby on the way (pictures in the Bowler and Derby thread), the derby arrived and I turned it around and sent it back the same day. It was in excellent condition, but only because it had had the sweatband replaced, etc., and the seller didn't know or didn't mention that.

I may end up with a collection, but it will be a collection that I *wear*, regularly.

Is there any other kind of collection.........

Kirk

 

[Steph]

Well played, Sir. Well played.