Optimal Weight/Thickness

[ton312]

It's unexpectedly how sometimes threads turning. From leather thickness to the sources and reasons of starting interest to the jackets.

That's the beauty of TFL. Were it not for meandering threads this place would be significantly less valuable and less entertaining!

 

[So33]

I'M into it for motorcycle, I feel out of place wearing a cross zip heavy leather jacket out side of riding.
I prefer traditional material over man-made.
I haven't the experience/investment to define the thickness in one manufacture model over the next in thickness from what is advertised VS. what it feels like or truly is.
I won't be the one to take a micrometer to measure after I PURCHASED or request it for better understanding of what is advertised
Too bad there is no longer retail stores to go to for comparison.
Internet seems to have it's drawback.
I'm at the point to pay 20 per cent more to be able to look see the quality, thickness and fit before purchasing
The Fedora Lounge is a great place to fill in between by the experience of others.

 

[Big J]

@pak, yes, this is very true. The performance of some modern fabrics (thinsulate, goretex, cordura and many others) is simply stunning compared to natural materials. If weight/performance is a factor (and it is for many professions and past times), they can't be beat. I don't like the feel of synthetic fibers on my skin, but I have a fleece and a goretex jacket to wear on my jogs when it's cold/raining.

@Seb, yeah, I'm in two minds about the ecological arguments for it. I saw a documentary ages ago about Japan Rail making its uniforms out of recycled PET bottles, and thought it was a pretty neat idea (but I wouldn't want to wear it all day!), but then I saw some news claiming that domestic laundering of fleeces was a major contributor to micro-plastics in the drinking water supply. I'm not really knowledgeable enough about it to make my mind up...

I still really like the concept of Aero's mismatched jackets using up odds and ends of left over leather (blue label?). That was a pretty smart idea. I'm sure the market is out there for that kind of sustainable production, even if it's not us.

My Aero B-3 is the heaviest jacket I own, and wearing it for several hours makes me tired. I'm pathetic! I can't imagine how much some people's heavy horse and steer must weigh.

Still, I fancy a WWI style flying coat. That must be heavy.

 

[Flightengineer]

That's the beauty of TFL. Were it not for meandering threads this place would be significantly less valuable and less entertaining!

It's hard to argue with this

 

[Edward]

“Mummy was a hostess Daddy was a drunk
'Cause they didn't love me then I turned out a punk
An ex house full of memories memories and junk
Never had a childhood I turned out a punk”-Big Audio Dynamite. I quote this cause it’s certianly what caused me to have my obsession and a specific look. I grew up on The Clash, Lou Reed, Sex Pistols, Joan Jett, The Libertines. I fell in love with Perfectos. Because I was working class I couldn’t afford it as a kid. Now that I’m an adult and doing well I go to work in my suit and tie and any chance I get I throw on my perfecto style jackets. Ride when I can. Thick and heavy for riding the Vanson. Any other chance it’s a perfecto style if not literally one of my Schott Perfectos. I’ll never loook as good as Brando, but hey maybe I can pull off a Ramone or Joe Strummer.

When I first wanted a leather jacket at around 15, the only style I wanted was a Perfecto style, in black. In those days - c.1989 - it was all about the metal guys and those around that scene- my specific inspiration was Alice Cooper, the later on I traced it back to the Ramones, and later still Brando. Come to think of it, an affection for the p-style leather jacket has probably been my one style consistency for thirty odd years, or close thereto.

Except for a few applications such as fashion, welding,shoes and boots, motorcycle riding and a few others, leather is pretty much obsolete as a garment fabric. It has been replaced by lighter, more flexible, more economical, better fitting and more available fabrics. That said I have a couple of premium leather jackets which I wear occasionally. I enjoy the quality and construction of these. However, when headed out the door, I typically will grab a jacket made of a woven fabric.

Debatable. There are certainly alternatives out there that may have certain advantages, though if leather were truly obsolete, it would have long disappeared by now.

Or perhaps because of the Outerwear section here at the Fedora?

Ha, don't joke. When I first came here, I didn't like Irvins. Now I even want a Grizzly....

Did Aero used to offer much heavier horsehide? Like 4oz?

Never quite that heavy. They have offered heavy steer in the past which has more weight than the CXL FQHH. During a period towards the end of the Will Lauder years, they did sell what was claimed to be heavy horse, but that was Will passing off steer as horse. (Commonly referred to as 'storse' in these parts). This was exposed when Ken returned to the company in 2012, and Aero made it right with customers.

I'm pretty sure there is a 'what got you into leather' tread somewhere here already.

Must be - I know there's a 'story about your first leather' thread, which is very entertaining.

I think the whole 'better for the environment' cry is elusive and largely rhetorical. We don't really know what is better and the calculations we use to establish which things are so are highly contestable.

Cotton, for instance, is also said to be one of the most environmentally destructive fabrics on earth because of the intensive use of pesticides used in its production in countries where the laws are flexible.

Take polar fleece. It's essentially recycled Coke bottles turned into a hard wearing fabric. I've heard lots of people call fleece the most environmentally friendly fabric around. If you look at it from one angle it may be that and if you can stomach wearing plastic on your torso...

These considerations are certainly complicated: even faux fur, considered more ethical than farmed real fur, has implications as a petroleum product...

 

[dannyk]

The ethics of it is certainly an odd thing. In the US at least I’m fairly certain that for horse hide a horse must die “naturally” to be used for leather products. Which makes the hides themselves fairly ethical. It either gets used or gets buried, burned whatever they do with a dead horse. On the other hand the dirty part is often the tanning process. I know tanneries create a ton of pollution.

 

[Hh121]

When I first wanted a leather jacket at around 15, the only style I wanted was a Perfecto style, in black. In those days - c.1989 - it was all about the metal guys and those around that scene- my specific inspiration was Alice Cooper, the later on I traced it back to the Ramones, and later still Brando. Come to think of it, an affection for the p-style leather jacket has probably been my one style consistency for thirty odd years, or close thereto.



Debatable. There are certainly alternatives out there that may have certain advantages, though if leather were truly obsolete, it would have long disappeared by now.



Ha, don't joke. When I first came here, I didn't like Irvins. Now I even want a Grizzly....



Never quite that heavy. They have offered heavy steer in the past which has more weight than the CXL FQHH. During a period towards the end of the Will Lauder years, they did sell what was claimed to be heavy horse, but that was Will passing off steer as horse. (Commonly referred to as 'storse' in these parts). This was exposed when Ken returned to the company in 2012, and Aero made it right with customers.



Must be - I know there's a 'story about your first leather' thread, which is very entertaining.



These considerations are certainly complicated: even faux fur, considered more ethical than farmed real fur, has implications as a petroleum product...

Thanks, I read from somewhere that Aero used to divide their leather to Mid-weight, Heavy, Very Heavy (or extremely heavy?).

 

[Edward]

Thanks, I read from somewhere that Aero used to divide their leather to Mid-weight, Heavy, Very Heavy (or extremely heavy?).

I don't know if they've ever really advertised it that way, but certainly they have a whole range of hide weights, from their lightest, goat, through midweight horse and steer of varying kinds (including Vicenza), to heavier hides like the CXL FQHH. The Horween CXL steer is notably the heaviest, if you want something really hefty, that's the one to go for. Heavier than the FQHH, though some folks feel it breaks in faster. As ever, best thing to do is speak to Aero about the appropriate hide for any jacket you're considering.

 

[tropicalbob]

The ethics of it is certainly an odd thing. In the US at least I’m fairly certain that for horse hide a horse must die “naturally” to be used for leather products. Which makes the hides themselves fairly ethical. It either gets used or gets buried, burned whatever they do with a dead horse. On the other hand the dirty part is often the tanning process. I know tanneries create a ton of pollution.

I read some time ago that London (Londinium) was a tannery town in the times of the Romans and that, even then, there were serious pollution problems in the Thames.

 

[Guppy]

I read some time ago that London (Londinium) was a tannery town in the times of the Romans and that, even then, there were serious pollution problems in the Thames.

Bloody Romans!

 

[CBI]

Genrally, I have gone from preferring thiner to now much thicker leather as I think the thinker leather gives me a better structured look than thinner hides that hug my body.

 

[Bern1]

It depends on the jacket and intended use of course. My Lost Worlds Easy Ryder is Stuart’s heaviest HH and it is perfect for the task. I used to exclusively want only the heaviest jackets. I had a Lost Worlds Downtown in the same weight as the motorcycle jacket and that was really heavy. It was kind of cool to wear, sometimes a nice feeling of wearing armor with the illusion it was billet proof! However, it was ridiculously difficult to operate the buttons and did I mention it was heavy?

Because it didn’t fit properly, it got sold and replaced with another Downtown. This time I asked Stuart for the lightest HH. This one is much easier to deal with, wear and button. Same wind proof performance and just as warm to layer, all in all it is a much “friendlier” coat than the previous one.

Still kind of miss the “bulletproof” one though...

 

[Edward]

The ethics of it is certainly an odd thing. In the US at least I’m fairly certain that for horse hide a horse must die “naturally” to be used for leather products. Which makes the hides themselves fairly ethical. It either gets used or gets buried, burned whatever they do with a dead horse. On the other hand the dirty part is often the tanning process. I know tanneries create a ton of pollution.

I remember there was a law passed some years ago against horse slaughter (other than for euthanasia in individual cases) in the US. I suspect a lot of the horsehides tanned in the US must come from elsewhere (possibly part of Europe where horsemeat is also eaten); surely our niche is big enough that it would take forever if we had to wait around for every horse to drop with old age?

 

[dannyk]

I remember there was a law passed some years ago against horse slaughter (other than for euthanasia in individual cases) in the US. I suspect a lot of the horsehides tanned in the US must come from elsewhere (possibly part of Europe where horsemeat is also eaten); surely our niche is big enough that it would take forever if we had to wait around for every horse to drop with old age?

Yes. I know several manufacturers source their hides from Italian tanneries. I can name several that do. Not sure of the laws in Europe or Asia for horse slaughter or usage though. Just a thought I was having. Someone can buy an American hide and a faux fur collar for your jacket and say to themselves how ethical and clean it is but not even consider how terrible the tanning process is. I think if you’re into this stuff there’s no way to win an ethics argument.

 

[willyto]

I think people here are just picturing a crap mall jacket leather when talking about thin leather and it's not the case and will never be.

Thin leather is what you can see in the high quality kangaroo leather, goatskin that most makers use, the warhorse hide that Eastman uses, the original horshide A-2 you can see still standing today, a lot of vintage leather jackets often found in great condition, lots of vintage shoes and boots still standing today, modern dress shoes...etc.

Thinking that a thin leather means bad quality or lesser quality than the heavy horsehide or steerhide used today by Aero and other makers is just plain wrong means that people aren't informed but rather sold on the marketing given to them.

I'm going to remind you again that professional pilots in their motorcycles use Kangaroo leather suits....not heavy CXL steerhide nor FQHH. What proof better than that is there to exist to show than thickness doesn't equal better leather. Most of us just use leather jackets as fashion and to be protected from the weather.

 

[dannyk]

I think people here are just picturing a crap mall jacket leather when talking about thin leather and it's not the case and will never be.

Thin leather is what you can see in the high quality kangaroo leather, goatskin that most makers use, the warhorse hide that Eastman uses, the original horshide A-2 you can see still standing today, a lot of vintage leather jackets often found in great condition, lots of vintage shoes and boots still standing today, modern dress shoes...etc.

Thinking that a thin leather means bad quality or lesser quality than the heavy horsehide or steerhide used today by Aero and other makers is just plain wrong means that people aren't informed but rather sold on the marketing given to them.

I'm going to remind you again that professional pilots in their motorcycles use Kangaroo leather suits....not heavy CXL steerhide nor FQHH. What proof better than that is there to exist to show than thickness doesn't equal better leather. Most of us just use leather jackets as fashion and to be protected from the weather.

I agree. If I’m given the option of 3oz horse or steer and 4oz and the price isn’t a huge difference and the its the same maker who makes quality no matter what, of course I’ll take the thicker, that just makes sense. But Langlitz considered goat as their go to hide for a reason. It has great scratch resistance and tear resistance in a lighter more flexible manner. And of course kangaroo is insanely good. And for true safety if that’s a concern, most riders will have leather with padding or some modern composite jacket with padding inside. And yeah most vintage jackets except tod the odd find here or there are 2-3oz jackets. I think a lot of it comes down to what I said first though. If a well known quality maker is offering a 2-3oz hide for say 1,000 dollars and then they offer a 3.5-4oz option for 1,300, I think it’s a matter of well why wouldn’t I take that?

 

[JMax]

Some people just like the feel of heavy leather. I do and do not think it superior to "thin" leather, kangaroo or otherwise. I just like it heavy.

 

[red devil]

Yes. I know several manufacturers source their hides from Italian tanneries. I can name several that do. Not sure of the laws in Europe or Asia for horse slaughter or usage though. Just a thought I was having. Someone can buy an American hide and a faux fur collar for your jacket and say to themselves how ethical and clean it is but not even consider how terrible the tanning process is. I think if you’re into this stuff there’s no way to win an ethics argument.

An ethics argument can not be won indeed... I just prefer natural products when I can get them and leave it at that.

 

[dannyk]

An ethics argument can not be won indeed... I just prefer natural products when I can get them and leave it at that.

Agreed. If I can and it’s an option I most certainly will do the same. But I like what I like and sometimes it’s not so pretty to think about.

 

[ton312]

I think a lot of it comes down to what I said first though. If a well known quality maker is offering a 2-3oz hide for say 1,000 dollars and then they offer a 3.5-4oz option for 1,300, I think it’s a matter of well why wouldn’t I take that?

In Aero's case the lighter vicenza is actually more expensive than the significantly heavier CXL. I've not seen any maker charging more $ for a finished product based on hide weight/thickness...