Optimal Weight/Thickness

[ton312]

This can quite fun indeed lol

I've had an entire room of middle aged men/women (honestly) absolutely marvel at the insane weight of a jacket. It's a cheap thrill but I do get a chuckle and enjoy it.

 

[MET]

Who offers 4oz jackets officially other than LW? Over 4oz there is no choice. Most of the members here even consider 3oz fqhh that aero offers as middleweight. So there is not much to discuss.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Who offers 4oz jackets officially other than LW? Over 4oz there is no choice. Most of the members here even consider 3oz fqhh that aero offers as middleweight. So there is not much to discuss.

There's WAY more to discuss.

 

[MET]

There's WAY more to discuss.

Almost no heavy leather choice and more to discuss.

 

[nick123]

I remember trying on this CHP-style jacket at Johnson Leathers and almost fell over.

 

[Superfluous]

The first thing to keep in mind is this: High quality jackets may be made of thick, medium, or thin leather.

100% agree!

Poor quality jackets are nearly always made out of a thin, poor quality leather. I mean I'm sure there are bad quality jackets that are made of thick quality leather, but it's rare.

This makes sense and I suspect you are right. If a company is going to make a poor quality jacket, the company might as well use really cheap, thin leather.

That said, two jackets made from the same 4 oz leather can me meaningfully different from a quality perspective.

this thread is about leather thickness and since that's what leather jacket is comprised entirely of, that's what I care most about.

I respectfully disagree with the notion that leather thickness is "what the leather jacket is comprised entirely of." For me, there is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more to a leather jacket than merely the thickness of the leather. Stated another way, IMHO, a quality leather jacket is MUCH more than merely a slab of thick, heavy leather. Personally, I care about the grain, correction, tanning, finish, feel, drape, rigidity and other components of the leather. I also care about the execution, symmetry, and precision of the stitch work and seams. I prefer higher stitch counts (while maintaining structural integrity) and appreciate prudent, well executed top stitching. I care about the selection, execution, symmetry and precision of the hardware (e.g., snaps that are evenly spaced from the adjacent stitching). Lastly, I care about the pattern and cut of the jacket (I presume you also care about this).

For me, a jacket is MUCH more than simply a utilitarian hunk of heavy animal skin. Rather, a good leather jacket is, or at least it can be, a well engineered, passionately and deftly executed work of art. To be clear, 4 and 5 oz leather jackets often meet these exacting standards. Stuart/LW is an elite leather artisan who only works with heavy leathers, and the precision of his creations is superlative. Likewise, other manufacturers regularly discussed here do a spectacular job constructing works of art out of 4 oz leathers. I am not denigrating the use of heavy leather, but rather, merely explaining why I believe there is more to the equation.

Simply put, not all 3 oz leather jackets are created equal, and not all 5 oz leather jackets are created equal. Two jackets made from the same 4 oz or 5 oz leather can be meaningfully different from a quality perspective. IMHO, leather thickness/weight is NOT "what the leather jacket is comprised entirely of." Rather, there are MANY more components to a quality leather jacket, above and beyond leather thickness. The relative weight (pardon the pun) that each of us apply to these other components varies considerably, but the fact remains that most of us consider certain of these other factors when making leather jacket purchases.

Ivan, I am NOT disparaging your view of the universe. It works for you, and that is ALL that matters. We all approach this obsession very differently, and there is no right or wrong methodology. You are infinitely more knowledgeable than I concerning these matters, and I learn from your posts each and every day. My disagreement on this issue is vastly overshadowed by my profound and enduring respect for the wisdom and experience that you contribute to this community on a daily basis. Thank you for that!

 

[ProteinNerd]

The thickness of the leather is merely a characteristic, it doesn't really have any influence on the quality of the end product.

I don't think there is any specific optimal weight leather, only an optimal weight for each customer to decide which they prefer for that particular jacket. I know I've got jackets that I specifically wanted thicker leather for and others I wanted thinner leathers for.

 

[Guppy]

Another thought I had on this topic: when wearing very heavy leather, you definitely know you have it on. It reminds you of this constantly. I believe that this reinforces your opinion about the jacket. Wearing something thin enough that you stop thinking about the fact that you have it on may make the experience less memorable. So the heavier the jacket, the more lasting the impression it leaves. And we naturally translate that impression into "quality" if we like the jacket.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Another thought I had on this topic: when wearing very heavy leather, you definitely know you have it on. It reminds you of this constantly. I believe that this reinforces your opinion about the jacket. Wearing something thin enough that you stop thinking about the fact that you have it on may make the experience less memorable. So the heavier the jacket, the more lasting the impression it leaves. And we naturally translate that impression into "quality" if we like the jacket.

All I ever think when I keep noticing the weight of a jacket is - "Why the hell didn't I wear my waxed cotton, this is annoying."

 

[JMax]

I understand the many reasons for using one over the other, such as climate or purpose (motorcycle riding). I am spitballing here, but do you think past experiences or professions impact preference? Not need, just preference. For example, do certain experiences in the military, police, construction or dock work, firefighters, commercial fishing, whatever else, mold that preference towards heavy outerwear and leather? Regardless of purpose, climate, etc. which determine need. It is what you have been trained to accept, enjoy and prefer. Of course, I guess it could mold the preference the other way too but for me, I want the outerwear to be heavy. I just so happen to ride so preference meets need.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I don't think there is a preference for heavy outerwear. There may be a preference for heavier leather on this site but it's a pretty small sample. The cops I know wear fleece, not leather, and nylon, for the rain. They like light clothing because they can run and move better in it. When I've been up on cattle stations, the clothing is very conventional. Apart from the Akubra Cattleman hat, its all fleece and nylon, with some waxed cotton and Kmart jeans. I think it's mainly the folk who dwell on and fetishize clothing who care about this.

 

[JMax]

Got it, but I was also thinking protective gear (body armor, equipment belt, shoulder rigs, etc) which is heavier. And you learn to move in it. Not just outerwear, I should have mentioned that. Point is that they are the used to heavier loads. Not all military and cops carry the same equipment or perform the same mission. I have carried such loads from time to time. I like heavy leather. now I am wondering if it is a correlation seen in others with similar experiences or just some JMax bs, fetishizing. Great word by the way.

Certainly only the insane on this site discuss it to the degree we do .

 

[Guppy]

I don't think there is a preference for heavy outerwear. There may be a preference for heavier leather on this site but it's a pretty small sample. The cops I know wear fleece, not leather, and nylon, for the rain. They like light clothing because they can run and move better in it. When I've been up on cattle stations, the clothing is very conventional. Apart from the Akubra Cattleman hat, its all fleece and nylon, with some waxed cotton and Kmart jeans. I think it's mainly the folk who dwell on and fetishize clothing who care about this.

It's not a preference to wear heavier gear than necessary. Every working man wants stuff that's as light as possible, while still durable and functional for the job.

But by necessity, that stuff weighs more than just regular clothes. And when you are in the habit of wearing that stuff for years, you do get used to it. Now, if you're overburdened by your gear to the point that it takes a toll on your body, I'm thinking firemen and infantry type jobs, then probably when you get the chance you don't want to wear heavy stuff. But if you wear heavier clothing and it's not burdensome, then you may enjoy the feeling, and feel underdressed without it.

 

[Big J]

If, for example, you're a bike racer, then leather thickness equals better protection.

I think that because of this, many mall-jacket shoppers conclude that increased weight equals increased quality.

And as more than a few mall-jacket shoppers became hipsters, this weight=quality assumption is reflected in the heavier weights of leathers being made available for 'artisan/high-end jackets', and the 'exclusivity/snob value' of having any particular style in a heavier weight than anyone else.

As far as I can make out, it is exactly the same story with denim.

Aside from the misinformed 'former mall-store shopper turned hipster', I would suggest that there is another dynamic at work here; the white collar worker. There does indeed seem to be a disproportionate ratio of white collar professionals who have an interest in 'back in the day' work wear, and associate heavier with a higher degree of 'authenticity'.

I buy flight jackets as a form of compensation for not being as dashing as I wish I was. It's psychological. In that manner I think that a lot of these middle-aged white collar guys are buying the heaviest weight (read; 'most authentic') vintage workwear reproductions as a way of compensating for working in a sterile office environment instead of, say, ranching or driving a steam locomotive or some such clearly masculine occupation.
Why would someone who can afford $2k for a jacket want to look like someone who shoveled coal 100 years ago? We kid ourselves that it's about a 'lost degree of quality' from 'a bygone age', but I think that's just rationalization. It's compensation for a sense of lost masculinity. Other guys just buy sports cars.

Personally, I don't judge quality by weight, but by wait

 

[Edward]

@ton312
As for the diamond comparison... I don't think I've never even seen an actual diamond in my life. But I'd say that any diamond that's used in tools is infinitely superior to the one used in jewelry, which ever classification those might be.

As all jewelry is infinitely useless.

I can see what Seb was getting at, even if it'snot a perfect allusion. I would disagree with the notion of jewellery being useless, though: I have several SWS rings that would be as effective as a knuckle duster but without getting me a record if it ever came down to that....

The first thing to keep in mind is this: High quality jackets may be made of thick, medium, or thin leather. Poor quality jackets are usually made out of very thin leather. So in some ways this is a case of the classic logic problem where a->b but that doesn't mean b->a

Poor quality jackets are nearly always made out of a thin, poor quality leather. I mean I'm sure there are bad quality jackets that are made of thick quality leather, but it's rare.

The other thing is that "thin" on a quality leather jacket usually means 2-2.5oz whereas poor quality jackets may be significantly less than that.

Completely. It's like people assuming that because cheap rubbish is made in China, everything made in China must be cheap rubbish. Which is very far from the truth. Manufacturers who will cut corners with material tend to do so with manufacture and assembly too.... I'm also reminded of those who for years maintained that 70s Stratocasters were substandard because of the three-bolt neck design, when the real flaw was CBS's low QA standards and stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap mentality.

I've had an entire room of middle aged men/women (honestly) absolutely marvel at the insane weight of a jacket. It's a cheap thrill but I do get a chuckle and enjoy it.

For similar effect, hand them a 'little' Strat or Les Paul type solid body guitar and watch the reactions....

I understand the many reasons for using one over the other, such as climate or purpose (motorcycle riding). I am spitballing here, but do you think past experiences or professions impact preference? Not need, just preference. For example, do certain experiences in the military, police, construction or dock work, firefighters, commercial fishing, whatever else, mold that preference towards heavy outerwear and leather? Regardless of purpose, climate, etc. which determine need. It is what you have been trained to accept, enjoy and prefer. Of course, I guess it could mold the preference the other way too but for me, I want the outerwear to be heavy. I just so happen to ride so preference meets need.

Experience might have an effect insofar as one is looking at a jacket for the same purposes - "I had a jacket years ago which I loved, it was great, really heavy" - wants a heavy jacket. "That heavy old jacket I used to have was a pain to wear" - wants a lighter hide. Profession might come into it in terms of having different needs / experiences as well as preferences, though where a job requires a certain uniform, there's not really much choice there typically... Guts I've known who worked in uniform often had set preferences, but couldn't act on them. Friend used to be in the RAF; I remember him remarking on my 'Northern Ireland' gloves, and how he missed wearing his but that once the Soldier 2000 system uniform was brought in, they were obliged to wear the gloves that came with tat, even though many of them found them inferior.

Climate will definitely come into it - a lot of the guys here who dislike heavy leathers do so, in part, because they live in hot climates where it is harder to wear.

I think that because of this, many mall-jacket shoppers conclude that increased weight equals increased quality.

And as more than a few mall-jacket shoppers became hipsters, this weight=quality assumption is reflected in the heavier weights of leathers being made available for 'artisan/high-end jackets', and the 'exclusivity/snob value' of having any particular style in a heavier weight than anyone else.

As far as I can make out, it is exactly the same story with denim.

I think this is true; people may latch onto a quality item but perceive that some particular characteristic of it is the reason for its overall quality, and then stick with that. Sort of thing that only really experience will 'cure'.

Why would someone who can afford $2k for a jacket want to look like someone who shoveled coal 100 years ago? We kid ourselves that it's about a 'lost degree of quality' from 'a bygone age', but I think that's just rationalization. It's compensation for a sense of lost masculinity. Other guys just buy sports cars.

Interesting argument. I don't think it's universal - there are plenty of us out there that don't give two hoots about being perceived as manly or otherwise - but it certainly seems likely that there are people out there who fit that mould.

Personally, I don't judge quality by weight, but by wait

GoodWear fans, eh?

 

[Monitor]

I buy flight jackets as a form of compensation for not being as dashing as I wish I was. It's psychological. In that manner I think that a lot of these middle-aged white collar guys are buying the heaviest weight (read; 'most authentic') vintage workwear reproductions as a way of compensating for working in a sterile office environment instead of, say, ranching or driving a steam locomotive or some such clearly masculine occupation.
Why would someone who can afford $2k for a jacket want to look like someone who shoveled coal 100 years ago? We kid ourselves that it's about a 'lost degree of quality' from 'a bygone age', but I think that's just rationalization. It's compensation for a sense of lost masculinity. Other guys just buy sports cars.

Very well said.

I do actually spend all my working hours on my feet, often outside so that's another reason why I need my jacket to... Well, I absolutely need it to at least seam as tough as possible, an illusion that only the weight of the leather can achieve but other than that, yeah, fully agreed.

I've lately well gotten over the notion that leather jacket will make me look better, though. Having accepted that, things have became much simpler. No need to fuss about the fit anymore.

 

[dannyk]

“Mummy was a hostess Daddy was a drunk
'Cause they didn't love me then I turned out a punk
An ex house full of memories memories and junk
Never had a childhood I turned out a punk”-Big Audio Dynamite. I quote this cause it’s certianly what caused me to have my obsession and a specific look. I grew up on The Clash, Lou Reed, Sex Pistols, Joan Jett, The Libertines. I fell in love with Perfectos. Because I was working class I couldn’t afford it as a kid. Now that I’m an adult and doing well I go to work in my suit and tie and any chance I get I throw on my perfecto style jackets. Ride when I can. Thick and heavy for riding the Vanson. Any other chance it’s a perfecto style if not literally one of my Schott Perfectos. I’ll never loook as good as Brando, but hey maybe I can pull off a Ramone or Joe Strummer.

 

[Big J]

@dannyk, a man after my own heart! Whatever it is that you wear, if it makes you feel good, then why the hell not!
Not everybody is going to understand, and neither seeking nor requiring approval is the difference (IMHO) between really living it and making it your own, and wearing a costume.

 

[pak]

Except for a few applications such as fashion, welding,shoes and boots, motorcycle riding and a few others, leather is pretty much obsolete as a garment fabric. It has been replaced by lighter, more flexible, more economical, better fitting and more available fabrics. That said I have a couple of premium leather jackets which I wear occasionally. I enjoy the quality and construction of these. However, when headed out the door, I typically will grab a jacket made of a woven fabric.

 

[Big J]

@Edward, yes, you're absolutely right. I wish you could edit all my comments before I post- it would save a lot of misunderstanding!