Ok, so some things in the golden era were not too cool...

[jamespowers]

Exactly so. There had been studies by the FBI and the Army during 1942 on the question of activity by Japanese agents on the West Coast, and it was concluded that the risk of sabotage from such agents was minimal. Charles Fahy, the Solicitor General who argued Korematsu before the Supreme Court, saw fit to hold back these reports, which were classified material at the time.

Canada also evacuated and relocated people of Japanese descent from all of British Columbia. This program was implemented about two months before the relocations were ordered in the US.

And who appointed Charles Fahy? It all goes back to the executive.
What other countries did is immaterial. We are a different country entirely and hold ourselves to a higher standard. At least I thought we were supposed to. 9066 was not a higher standard.

 

[jamespowers]

"... growing up I'd always wondered whatever happened to the people who'd been hippies."
I think there were a lot of "P.J. O'Rourke hippies" back then. Paraphrasing from memory, I think he said somewhere in his writings that he never really believed all that hippie stuff, he was just interested in partaking of the sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll. I think that applies to a lot of people from that time, including me. (minus the drugs in my case)
When all that went away they became ordinary citizens - some quite conservative...

A social transformation from that era (and just past) that always amazed me was the fact that the same construction workers and "hard-hats" (short-hairs) who chased and beat up the long-haired hippies became long-hairs themselves just a few years later. Long hair and even pig-tails were standard construction-worker style.

I don't trust reformed hippies. They backslide all the time. The smell always comes back.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And who appointed Charles Fahy? It all goes back to the executive.
What other countries did is immaterial. We are a different country entirely and hold ourselves to a higher standard. At least I thought we were supposed to. 9066 was not a higher standard.

We like to claim we hold ourselves to a higher standard, but if history shows us anything it's that we often don't. Slavery being tolerated by the Founding Fathers, Lincoln's suspension of haebas corpus during the Civil War, lynch law during Reconstruction and the institutionalization of Jim Crow, the mob violence against German-Americans during WW1, the Red Scare of the twenties, the relocation camps, the Red Scare of the fifties, and on down to various events of recent times.

It's easy, and perhaps politically satisfying for some, to point to any one historical figure and say "HE IS TO BLAME." But the complex reality of the situation usually goes much deeper than that. Moral outrage doesn't change history, but examining *why* people acted as they did and trying to understand what motivated them can keep us from repeating the same mistakes. It's one thing to argue that the President made a bad decision -- and I agree that he did. But I think it's more important to know *why* he made that decision -- what factors influenced him, who advised him, what advice did he reject?

Here's all three parts of the original "Ringle Report," the document Solicitor General Fahy withheld during his argument of Koramatsu. Although it's been characterized as a "smoking gun," it isn't quite that. While it indicates that the majority of Japanese-Americans on the West Coast were unlikely to pose any kind of threat or risk, it did indicate that there were reasons to believe that problems *could* erupt if the conditions of racial tension then prevalent on the West Coast were allowed to continue:

(i) That the above opinions are and will continue to be true just so long as these people, Issei and Nisei, are given an opportunity to be self-supporting, but that if conditions continue in the trend they appear to be taking as of this date; i.e., loss of employment and income due to anti-Japanese agitation by and among Caucasian Americans, continued personal attacks by Filipinos and other racial groups, denial of relief funds to desperately needy cases, cancellation of licenses for markets, produce houses, stores, etc., by California State authorities, discharges from jobs by the wholesale, unnecessarily harsh restrictions on travel, including discriminatory regulations against all Nisei preventing them from engaging in commercial fishing -- there will most certainly be outbreaks of sabotage, riots, and other civil strife in the not too distant future.

-- Report of 1/26/42, Section 1, Paragraph (i).

Ringer specifically cites Hearst columnist James Young, radio commentator John B. Hughes, and a Naval Reserve officer and lecturer by the name of Lail Kane as being among the foremost anti-Japanese-American agitators of the moment, and also, interestingly, contends that much of the agitation was being promoted by a group of Yugoslavian fishermen who wanted to cut the Japanese-Americans out of their fishing territories. He also cites a California congressman, one Leland Ford, for whipping up anti-Japanese sentiment by proposing a bill that would have interned *all* Americans of Japanese descent, not just those on the West Coast, including those in Hawaii.

In the end, Ringer rejected any relocation program, calling it both unwarranted and unwise, but General DeWitt urged the President to reject Ringer's recommendations -- two weeks after Pearl Harbor he had begun pushing for a relocation order, and he continued to press this point. At the end of January 1942, with public sentiment becoming explosive, he began pressuring the War Department for authority to deal with the "Japanese Problem" in the area of his command, and this led to extensive discussions between Secretary of War Stimson, Attorney General Francis Biddle, DeWitt, and the Governor of California, Culbert Olson. Neither Biddle nor Stimson wanted a mass exclusion order, but when a meeting of over 150 police chiefs, sherrifs, and other law enforcement officials in California passed a resolution demanding the immediate removal and interment of Japanese-Americans "in the interests of public safety," they caved, and agreed to accept DeWitt's recommendation. DeWitt drafted a proposed exclusion order, Biddle signed off on it, and at that point, based on the recommendations of two of his most trusted advisors, the President issued his order. DeWitt was given full authority from then on to deal with the exclusion zones and the relocation program.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I don't trust reformed hippies. They backslide all the time. The smell always comes back.

From The Flying Burrito Brothers' The Gilded Palace of Sin (the cover of which featured some awesome Nudie suits)...

HIPPIE BOY:

I was walking down the street the other day
And a sight came before my eyes
It was a little hippie boy, I must have been twice his size
His appearance typified his strange breed
Gaudy clothes, long stringy hair hanging down
I'd seen perhaps a thousand in my early trips to town

As he walked beside me on down the block
I noticed no unpleasing smell
He might have been on the weed or even LSD
But if he was I couldn't tell...

 

[jamespowers]

From The Flying Burrito Brothers' The Gilded Palace of Sin (the cover of which featured some awesome Nudie suits)...

HIPPIE BOY:

I was walking down the street the other day
And a sight came before my eyes
It was a little hippie boy, I must have been twice his size
His appearance typified his strange breed
Gaudy clothes, long stringy hair hanging down
I'd seen perhaps a thousand in my early trips to town

As he walked beside me on down the block
I noticed no unpleasing smell
He might have been on the weed or even LSD
But if he was I couldn't tell...

The only difference is that here you can smell them and tell they are on dope.

 

[Stearmen]

I remember my mothers friend, a life long Republican, who hated FDR, and bought into the conspiracy theory that he allowed Pearl Harbour to be attacked. Yet she supported the internment of Japanese Americans. I asked her why, and she stated that she could see the fishing boats at night signaling the Japanese submarines to come in and be refueled. When I tried to explain that the Fleet submarines measured their fuel by the ton and not the gallon, and they had a 20,000 mile range, so no need to refuel, she would just say, "I know what I saw!"

 

[Zombie_61]

I don't trust reformed hippies. They backslide all the time. The smell always comes back.

That may be, but the smell coming from the original 1960s hippies these days is Ben Gay...and they drop antacid.

As for "whatever happened to the people who'd been hippies", once they realized "flower power" didn't work they became like any other segment of society and either pursued their passions and talents, or they took whatever opportunities became available to them. In other words, they grew up a little and realized they had to somehow earn a living. [huh]

 

[Story]

When all that went away they became ordinary citizens - some quite conservative...

And others, not so much. To wit, Alinsky and his acolytes.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I remember my mothers friend, a life long Republican, who hated FDR, and bought into the conspiracy theory that he allowed Pearl Harbour to be attacked. Yet she supported the internment of Japanese Americans. I asked her why, and she stated that she could see the fishing boats at night signaling the Japanese submarines to come in and be refueled. When I tried to explain that the Fleet submarines measured their fuel by the ton and not the gallon, and they had a 20,000 mile range, so no need to refuel, she would just say, "I know what I saw!"

The same sort of fears existed here on the East Coast. Silly as it seems, many older Carteret County locals still swear that U-boat crews came ashore in civilian clothing and went to the movie theater in Beaufort. Beaufort was a community of about five-thousand people in 1942. A crew of quiet, smelly strangers showing up in the only movie theater in town wouldn't have been more obvious if they had neon signs screwed to their heads.

Sadly, roumors about some local people aiding the U-boat crews nearly destroyed several families. One local woman...who was single, happened to be a pilot and was a person of means…was accused of re-supplying U-boats from her single engine seaplane. The rumors were so pervasive that they were still being repeated twenty years later when I was a kid. There was no evidence of this, of course, and she couldn’t have done much re-supplying in a small seaplane even if she had wanted to. But in the hysteria of that time, I guess nobody bothered to think critically about the things they were told. They just swallowed the rumors hook, line and sinker and then repeated them as often as possible.

AF

 

[LizzieMaine]

Sadly, roumors about some local people aiding the U-boat crews nearly destroyed several families. One local woman...who was single, happened to be a pilot and was a person of means…was accused of re-supplying U-boats from her single engine seaplane. The rumors were so pervasive that they were still being repeated twenty years later when I was a kid. There was no evidence of this, of course, and she couldn’t have done much re-supplying in a small seaplane even if she had wanted to. But in the hysteria of that time, I guess nobody bothered to think critically about the things they were told. They just swallowed the rumors hook, line and sinker and then repeated them as often as possible.

AF

We *did* have U-Boats off the Maine coast -- we had, and still have, several oil-storage depots along the coast which were the last stop for shipments of fuel headed to Europe, and military tankers frequently loaded at these points. There was at least one documented instance of a U-Boat landing spies off the Maine coast -- they were put ashore near Ellsworth in late 1944, and made their way as far as New York before they were caught by the FBI. The fact that they came ashore in business suits -- in Maine, in November -- was a dead giveaway.

In my own town, there's a cemetery plot containing an unmarked grave which holds the remains of four men who washed ashore in early 1942, and were believed to be German submariners. While they've never been positively identified, they were never identified as anyone else, either.

 

[Atticus Finch]

BTW...here's something I found on the internet about Ms. Yeatman, the local woman who was falsely rumored to have aided the U-boats.

http://beaufortartist.blogspot.com/2011/10/first-woman-licensed-as-architect-in-nc.html

We had plenty of U-boats off the NC coast, in both world wars. The bottom of the Atlantic between Currituck and Baldhead is littered with the remains of their victims…many within sight of shore. But if any of the submarine crews ever voluntarily came ashore in North Carolina, there's no proof of it. A few came ashore here, but not of their choosing. A part of at least one U-boat crew was captured and imprisoned here when their boat was sunk. In fact, a member of that crew still lives in this area.

AF

 

[jamespowers]

That may be, but the smell coming from the original 1960s hippies these days is Ben Gay...and they drop antacid.

As for "whatever happened to the people who'd been hippies", once they realized "flower power" didn't work they became like any other segment of society and either pursued their passions and talents, or they took whatever opportunities became available to them. In other words, they grew up a little and realized they had to somehow earn a living. [huh]

Ben Gay mixed with patchouli. The only thing that makes me happy is that they get old and go away just like every one else---faster due to their lifestyles. I wonder what talents they had/have. lol lol lol

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I wonder what talents they had/have. lol lol lol

I remember that they could do a far out slow motion flower dance to flute music. [huh]

 

[p51]

I was born and raised in North Florida, and there is an oft-told story of a German U-boat crew coming ashore in one of the Gulf Coast towns and shopping and looking around, but not saying much because few of them spoke English. The story seemed silly to me even as a kid, but there are plenty of people who firmly believe it to this day, some folks even swear they saw said crew walking around Apalachicola, FL in the spring of 1942, when there is no evidence to support this ever happened.

I remember my mothers friend, a life long Republican, who hated FDR, and bought into the conspiracy theory that he allowed Pearl Harbour to be attacked. Yet she supported the internment of Japanese Americans. I asked her why, and she stated that she could see the fishing boats at night signaling the Japanese submarines to come in and be refueled. When I tried to explain that the Fleet submarines measured their fuel by the ton and not the gallon, and they had a 20,000 mile range, so no need to refuel, she would just say, "I know what I saw!"

This is an excellent point about memory and the power of a good story. I bet this person probably just heard the story from someone who heard it elsehwere or didn't know what they were seeing, and after all these years, it's cemented itself as fact in the minds of a few people.
I got into a short argument with an older person just yesterday that the line, "Play it again, Sam" isn't in the movie Casablanca at all. I challenged him to watch the movie all the way through and come back and tell me where that line really is. He swore he saw the movie in the 60s and clearly remembered Bogey saying that line. Two days later he'd watched the DVD and proclaimed that he was clearly watching the 'edited version' because he clearly recalled it. I even sent him to the internet where there is plenty of documentation of this urban legend. He did and said they were all wrong, just because he remembered hearing the line about 50 years ago...

 

[jamespowers]

I remember that they could do a far out slow motion flower dance to flute music. [huh]

Well, let's see, they could still be growing dope now. They could be crash dummies, medical test subjects, Rasputin Impersonators, paper folders, cat behavior consultants, speed bumps etc.

 

[fashion frank]

We *did* have U-Boats off the Maine coast -- we had, and still have, several oil-storage depots along the coast which were the last stop for shipments of fuel headed to Europe, and military tankers frequently loaded at these points. There was at least one documented instance of a U-Boat landing spies off the Maine coast -- they were put ashore near Ellsworth in late 1944, and made their way as far as New York before they were caught by the FBI. The fact that they came ashore in business suits -- in Maine, in November -- was a dead giveaway..

Reminds me of the 1960's comedy movie " The Russians are Coming " about a sub crew that put's ashore in a small Maine coastal town and what takes place ,it was very funny.

Also out in the Block Island Sound between Block Island .Rhode island and the mainland here there is a sunken u boat that was sunk in retaliation for them sinking a freighter in the same area .
People still dive down to the wreak.

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

 

[HudsonHawk]

I was born and raised in North Florida, and there is an oft-told story of a German U-boat crew coming ashore in one of the Gulf Coast towns and shopping and looking around, but not saying much because few of them spoke English. The story seemed silly to me even as a kid, but there are plenty of people who firmly believe it to this day, some folks even swear they saw said crew walking around Apalachicola, FL in the spring of 1942, when there is no evidence to support this ever happened.This is an excellent point about memory and the power of a good story. I bet this person probably just heard the story from someone who heard it elsehwere or didn't know what they were seeing, and after all these years, it's cemented itself as fact in the minds of a few people.

I don't know if they came ashore, but German U-boats certainly patrolled the Gulf during the war and sunk dozens of vessels. One of the more famous is the British oil tanker Empire Mica, which was sunk about 35 miles south of Apalachicola in June of 1942.

 

[jamespowers]

Reminds me of the 1960's comedy movie " The Russians are Coming " about a sub crew that put's ashore in a small Maine coastal town and what takes place ,it was very funny.

Also out in the Block Island Sound between Block Island .Rhode island and the mainland here there is a sunken u boat that was sunk in retaliation for them sinking a freighter in the same area .
People still dive down to the wreak.

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

[video=youtube_share;pXXGep9RB34]http://youtu.be/pXXGep9RB34[/video]

 

[fashion frank]

Man you just made my day posting that ,that movie was great !

All the Best , Fashion Frank

 

[jamespowers]

Man you just made my day posting that ,that movie was great !

All the Best , Fashion Frank

That was the whole movie in ten minutes. lol lol