Obsolete Occupations

[ScionPI2005]

TV/Radio Repairman
Another occupation which has been rendered obsolete by the disposable society where even your fancy plasma screen TV is designed to be replaced rather than repaired. Once upon a time almost every town had a Fix It shop where all manner of household appliances were repaired.

I just have to return to this post made a few days ago. I know that there are repairman for different household items around these days, but it just seems like the repair job in general is slowly dying out. More items than just plasma TV's seem to be produced today with the expectation that they will be replaced if anything goes wrong with them.

I still like to use my cell phone as an example. Anyone who has one knows that cell phone service providers like to offer some sort of trade-in special or discount on a new phone upon the renewal of your plan every year or so. Also, I'm not overly abusive to my cell phone by any means, but have NEVER been able to get a cell phone of mine to work over a year and a half, to maybe two years. In contrast, I have a heavy duty black rotary dial telephone from the 1930's on my desk that still works like a charm. I replaced the cord going from the handset to the phone box several years ago, but aside from that, it still works, and I still use it.

I just feel most anything these days is made cheaply, and designed to fail after a very short time, forcing the consumer to upgrade frequently. Heck, a lot of the time, you can't even find parts for a product made several years ago even if you look for them.

Now, I do have a few repairmen around town that I know who repair my vintage watches, and have done work on my phonograph player. Still, I had to do a lot of hunting to find them, and they're about as non-mainstream as the rest of us here! I just believe that the repairman as a whole, and as a mainstream profession has vanished.

 

[Chainsaw]

ScionPI2005

" just feel most anything these days is made cheaply, and designed to fail after a very short time, forcing the consumer to upgrade frequently. Heck, a lot of the time, you can't even find parts for a product made several years ago even if you look for them."

If you go to Walmart you can buy a pair of brand new jeans for 10 bucks, or pay 50/80 respeactably for American and Canadian made jeans. Bye, bye jobs, bye, bye quality.

I drive an 87 regal personally, I know if there's an accident I'll be all right. I used to have a Suzuki Samurai when I was a teenager, (couldn't afford a jeep) Used to call it my Japaness Coffin. If I got into an accident with it, might as well bury me and the Samurai

 

[MPicciotto]

He always used to say, the problem with the country, is "There's no pride of ownership."

Disposable cars, disposable marriages, houses the bank owns, and someone else is proud of.
.

Not just disposable. But more and more the question is not how long will this last/what's the repair cost etc etc. It's often not even what will this cost me now. Its:

What is the monthly payment?

So many things have become monthly payments. My cable provider offers an option to "rent" my cable modem for my computer. Like 5 dollars a month. I said how much does it cost to buy one? I was told 45 dollars, I could buy it from them and they would just add 15 to my bill for three months or I could buy my own. For convenience I opted to buy from them, it was simple and quick since they could do the install the next day and I didn't have to run to Werst Buy to get one. But really 5 dollars a month for eternity instead of just buying the thing?!?! Obviously people want that feature. Or how about the rental furniture, appliances etc? Does anybody just save their money any more and buy what they want/need AFTER they've saved?!

We have become such a get it now culture that we don't care if we even own it, just as long as it's perceived that we own it. And I believe it is that culture that has destroyed so many of the jobs we discuss here.

Matt

 

[JimWagner]

It is certainly popular to denigrate the throw away society; I do it myself.

That said, I do know a little about repairing things. And it's more a matter of economics than anything else that there aren't more repair shops around. Years ago, when the economy was better than today, I drew up a business plan for an electronics repair business I was thinking about starting. It was a real eye opener.

First, if you are in the repair business you'd like to make a decent living, wouldn't you? After all you consider yourself to be a skilled technician, right?

About the most you're going to be able to charge is $75 an hour for your time. Above that and most people just aren't going to do business with you. Sounds like good money, right?

Out of that $75/hour (assuming you actually bill $75/hour, 8 hours per day, 6 days per week) you're going to have take out expenses like taxes, rent for your shop space (or mortgage payments), utilities, tools, test equipment, banking expenses, advertising, health insurance, liability insurance, bookkeeping (unless you do your own), etc, etc.

How about parts markup? Sure, you'll mark up any parts you replace. But are you honest enough to only replace exactly what requires replacing or do you do a little "preventative" replacement?

Anyway, without going into pages of detailed analysis here the bottom line turns out that you simply cannot run a one man repair shop profitably without selling something as well. Actually, there's enough markup on selling goods like electronics equipment that you're better off selling the equipment and hiring someone to do repairs in the back as a loss leader.

In the early 90's it was already pretty much impossible to actually earn a living running a one man repair shop. At least anything above starvation level.

And all of that is before factoring in that no one is going to spend $100 to repair a $50 item.

And never mind that the way modern electronics are constructed even if you could find a part to replace you'd pretty much need a microscope and special tools to attempt that replacement.

So, getting away from electronics some, just how much would you be willing to spend to have a $20 coffee maker repaired? Enough to make it worth the time of the repair person to touch it?

P.S. My business analysis showed me that I could run a repair business - as long as I was willing to take home about a third of what I was already making.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the real question on the throw-away-society issue is this: how high a standard of living do we really have if we're spending $20 for a coffee maker or $1000 for a TV that we'll throw in the trash when it quits a year down the line? Isn't it instead simply the *illusion* of a high standard of living, the equivalent of living in a big house that's actually just a cardboard facade?

(My coffee maker is an aluminum Drip-O-Lator with no electrical parts at all, and it cost me less than a dollar. And it'll never, ever need to be replaced.)

 

[Fletch]

I thought you said you didn't drink coffee. Have you had a change of heart, er, stomach?

Of course, another big issue is the lack of that resourceful army of local fix-it gurus, as Jim Wagner explained above. Economics don't seem to permit it. However, as I read Jim's post, I heard a door close in my head: that's that. The noble tradesman must not ply his trade too cheaply, or at all if the market shows no need.

Now I'm no economist, far from it, but I'm not satisfied that that's true. There are skills that are needed yet not marketable: read some of the threads on hat renovation.

I have to wonder: Can't the economics of the mass market be questioned on a local level? Especially with something as basic and potentially useful as repair?

No, you won't be able to earn your whole living from it, or do it full-time. No, many higher-end electronics won't be fixable at a good rate. Is that the end of the story? Why should it be? Can anything short of that be done?

Maybe do a co-op. There are lots of old repair techs out there who could be bartered with or might even do a little volunteering if it does the community good.

Start with stuff like kitchen tools and home appliances - especially the kind that are too old for the dealer network. You could even sell a few lines of good quality and/or reconditioned stuff, hand-operated tools, maybe small electrics that aren't all plastic and printed circuits.

This is probably promotable as a green move, and if it's done outside of the traditional economics (barring any convictions about that), it could beat the cost of buying new in a lot of cases.

Just thinking...no numbers, just thinking.

 

[JimWagner]

Fletch, I think what you are describing does exist, at least on some level. I also believe that those providing that repair service are either doing it to supplement retirement income, to finance a hobby (or as a hobby), or some reason not associating with main income. Avocation, not vocation in other words.

Another avenue is ironically possible because of the internet. There are any number of niche or vertical markets that can't make it on local walk in business that work fine by being found on the internet. That's if shipping is feasible.

Restoring vintage electronics or appliances would seem to be one of those possibilities. I could see it possible that one could set up a business accessible via the internet and if you chose correctly what to repair get some business. I'm not convinced that you could earn your primary income from it even then, though. Sourcing parts would be daunting as well.

I know someone who collects and restore old small gasoline engines. He has to scratch build and machine quite a few parts. It's a hobby with him and after he spends 100's of hours and dollars to restore an engine, the final result is not sellable for anything close to what he has put into it.

I do 99% of my own repairs (excepting automotive these days) and I wouldn't be willing to pay someone else what I would consider the fair cost of those repairs. For example, I spent quite a few hours this weekend replacing and rewiring the starter switch on my 19 year old lawn tractor. Couldn't find a direct replacement switch and ended up replacing it with an auto starter switch and a toggle switch for the magneto. Only about $26 out of pocket, but at least 8 hours of labor, figuring out what to do, and running around finding suitable parts. Not to mention all the attendant cuts, bruises and general frustration. Oh, and another $60 for a new battery plus time to put in the acid and charge it up.

Call it 8 hours of labor at $75/hour. That would be $600 right there. Call it $112 (including markup) for the parts. Another $20 for incidental parts (wire, connectors, nuts, bolts). Total; $732.

Now one could argue that 8 hours was too much labor even though it took a little longer than that in reality if you include driving around for parts. So as a repair person you might knock off a couple of hours attempting to get it down to something "reasonable". Let's knock it down to $500.

And that spotlights the real dilemma that all repair people find themselves in. If a repair takes a significant amount of time then a) no one will pay the full cost of it and b) if you don't charge full amount you are working at a loss. Compound the problem by needing to substitute parts because OEM parts aren't available and you see where this is headed.

I think that's the normal situation for that type of thing.

 

[Atomic Age]

I think the only way that works is as suggested, repairing vintage electronics and appliances. And then the only way you could make it work is buying old stuff, fixing it up new, and selling them to collectors for a good mark up. I know phone collectors pay pretty big money for fully restored vintage phones.

But most people are just not going to pay more to repair a product, that they can replace with a new item for less.

Doug

 

[John in Covina]

Obsolete retirements.

Because of some of the financial pitfalls that we are working our way thru currently many older adults that were retired find that they need to supplement their income and are working at lesser jobs instead of enjoying their retirement.

Hi welcome to Walmart.

 

[MPicciotto]

The problem with reparing things is as stated things aren't meant to be repaired any more. The 20 dollar coffee maker will not have readily available parts nor will they be affordable compared to the coffee maker. I do HVAC. I can repair a 60 year old furnace with the parts on my truck or occasionally have to order a part, which is easy since going back that far the parts are "universal". Fast forward to a 15 year old system and I call the manufacturer and he tells me that it's obsolete, he'd have to go to a filing cabinet to even pull up a wiring diagram and I'm advised to just replace it!!

I don't blame the consumer on an individual basis for opting for the 20 dollar throw away coffee maker over the 200 dollar keep it for generations one. After all who is going to fix it? Where? How much? Will it be able to be fixed. Or will it go the way of the Lennox Pulse Furnace?

Matt

 

[Fletch]

You guys are all a little too pragmatic. Too many reasons why things can't be done. I agree that most products, for some time now, are meant to be junked. But in a way, that's a reason to save the good ones. Maybe try emailing the manufacturers for that wiring diagram, or searching for some old service manuals.

(That's one problem with low tech, btw - it's quietly resisting the freer flow of information, which is still seen as the privilege of the skilled tradesman. You have to phone him. He doesn't have to phone you back.)

I would like to see more older, easily fixable appliances in use by more people. It would save them money. It would give a poke in the eye to consumerism. It would create a local network of tech and craft people, maybe cooperative, maybe semi-commercial, so you don't have the problem that "no one around here does that." It would give people back some sense of control that they don't have when they depend on buying a new this or that every x years, and being victimized by dumb trends and bad quality.

It ought to be a look into whether things can't be done at least a little differently - a little more locally, and with a little more thrift and workmanship. It's not some woowoo new-age kum ba ya, and it's not consciousness-raising. More like consciousness-focusing.

 

[JimWagner]

Hmmm. You may be missing an important factor that several of us have been trying to point out. This isn't about philosophy. It's about economics. I'm pretty resourceful when it comes to repairing my own possessions. I can almost always find the information I need and generally either find the part I need or make do. Whether the item was intended to be repairable or not.

What I cannot do is make money repairing some else's stuff. I can only save my own money and spend my own time.

That said, I just had a 36 year old gas furnace replaced with a gas pack. Had to, the heat exchanger cracked. Up until the heat exchanger cracked, creating a dangerous situation, I pretty much repaired that unit myself. Including pulling the blower motor and taking that to get rewound some years back. But when the a/c gave out 10 years ago I switched to window units rather than replace the whole thing. I only needed to cool a room or two anyway.

The new unit is a modern marvel. It has a computer board on it that controls combustion and all sorts of things. It sits outside instead of in the house. Guess what I believe will be the first thing to fail? The computer board of course. The temperature extremes outside will kill it at least once if not several times during its 10 year warranty. I wonder if that board will remain available during the warranty period, let alone for the next 36 years. And the whole board will have to be replaced. Not just a component or two on it. It is certainly conceivable that the board itself could be repaired - at the factory. But not in a reasonable time when your heat is out and the house is cold.

But realistically it will probably outlast me at my age. And it's quiet, uses less energy and we have central air again. That makes the wife happy.

 

[Chainsaw]

Same thing with old pool heaters, the ones from thee seventies you could get say, 25-35 years out of them. Over 40 if they were installed inside. Models made by the same manufacturer in the late nineties to present time, (with the redesigned heat exchangers) last for about 2-5 years!

Can you even believe that? Never mind pool pumps. Used to be, 20, 25 years. Now all the stuffs made over seas, it's "cheap" and the life span is about 20% of what it used to be.

As someone that's done service work since before he could drive, the manufacturers have pulled the rug out from under us. I suppose you can blame inflation counter measures, or something.

Anyway, all the car mechanics had this same conversation probably 85' when the cars started getting complicated. Back then at least among us Europeans, the mechanics had the same respect as a Doctor or such. And not because they were Italian. Now, there are very few competent, family run mechanic shops. [huh]

 

[MPicciotto]

Hmmm. You may be missing an important factor that several of us have been trying to point out. This isn't about philosophy. It's about economics. I'm pretty resourceful when it comes to repairing my own possessions. I can almost always find the information I need and generally either find the part I need or make do. Whether the item was intended to be repairable or not.

What I cannot do is make money repairing some else's stuff. I can only save my own money and spend my own time.

That said, I just had a 36 year old gas furnace replaced with a gas pack. Had to, the heat exchanger cracked. Up until the heat exchanger cracked, creating a dangerous situation, I pretty much repaired that unit myself. Including pulling the blower motor and taking that to get rewound some years back. But when the a/c gave out 10 years ago I switched to window units rather than replace the whole thing. I only needed to cool a room or two anyway.

The new unit is a modern marvel. It has a computer board on it that controls combustion and all sorts of things. It sits outside instead of in the house. Guess what I believe will be the first thing to fail? The computer board of course. The temperature extremes outside will kill it at least once if not several times during its 10 year warranty. I wonder if that board will remain available during the warranty period, let alone for the next 36 years. And the whole board will have to be replaced. Not just a component or two on it. It is certainly conceivable that the board itself could be repaired - at the factory. But not in a reasonable time when your heat is out and the house is cold.

But realistically it will probably outlast me at my age. And it's quiet, uses less energy and we have central air again. That makes the wife happy.

Nope the board will probably be fine and probably out last the furnace. Heat Pumps have used PC boards in outdoor units now for about 40 years. I personally know of some still running in the 20-30 year old category with original boards. Ironically the part of the board that typically fails is NOT an electronic element. But a relay. I predict your inducer assembly will fail first. That or the burners will get packed with the nest of stinging insects over the summer.

Typically in the HVAC and major appliance industries replacement parts are manufactured for 10 years past the manufacture of the unit for which they are intended. So if your package unit is manufactured for ten more years after when you bought then expect replacement parts until 20 years later. If you have the last year of production before a major change then you have 10 years. Occasionally I've seen where the part was no longer available even though the unit was still under warranty. In those cases the manufacturer spent a LOT of money sending out enough parts to not only replace the part that wasn't available but every part that it was connected to until it reached a level of compatibility.

Out of curiosity who is the manufacturer?

Matt

 

[mflemming]

Please Sixties nut,don't start talkin' about telephones. I'm still pissed off Ma Bell's Monoply was broken up here. Apparently the service was too good.

Of course, normal folks couldn't afford to make long-distance calls in those days for anything other than family emergencies. Now we take flat-rate nationwide long-distance for granted.

 

[Atomic Age]

Obsolete retirements.

Because of some of the financial pitfalls that we are working our way thru currently many older adults that were retired find that they need to supplement their income and are working at lesser jobs instead of enjoying their retirement.

Hi welcome to Walmart.

Yes and the upside to this is that I can actually understand what is being said at the drive through, because the adult manning the the window actually enunciates. They also know a little bit about basic customer service, unlike the teenagers who the adults have replaced at most of the fast food places I visit.

Doug

 

[Atomic Age]

The problem with reparing things is as stated things aren't meant to be repaired any more. The 20 dollar coffee maker will not have readily available parts nor will they be affordable compared to the coffee maker. I do HVAC. I can repair a 60 year old furnace with the parts on my truck or occasionally have to order a part, which is easy since going back that far the parts are "universal". Fast forward to a 15 year old system and I call the manufacturer and he tells me that it's obsolete, he'd have to go to a filing cabinet to even pull up a wiring diagram and I'm advised to just replace it!!

I don't blame the consumer on an individual basis for opting for the 20 dollar throw away coffee maker over the 200 dollar keep it for generations one. After all who is going to fix it? Where? How much? Will it be able to be fixed. Or will it go the way of the Lennox Pulse Furnace?

Matt

My dad used to buy Sears appliances because there was a Sears parts store right down the street where he could get replacement parts for every thing we owned. In fact that parts store is still there and they still sell parts for Sears appliances. I don't know how far back their inventory goes however.

Doug

 

[JimWagner]

y.

Out of curiosity who is the manufacturer?

Matt

I bow to your expertise and really hope you are correct

It's a Carrier gas pack.

 

[JimWagner]

The corollary to things used to be repairable is that they needed repair. Often.

I mentioned earlier that I don't really do my own auto maintenance any more. I certainly used to. Mostly I don't because my vehicles just don't need the maintenance they used to. I used to have to tune up my cars every 12,000 miles, replace brakes every 15,000, fix electrical problems, rebuild carburetors, etc.

My pickup has 125,000 miles on it. It still has the original brake pads, has never needed a tuneup, still has original fluids fluids except for engine oil (that gets changed every 3000 miles) and has pretty much never seen a mechanic. And that's a Chevrolet. A brand that gets knocked.

Let's take electronics.

TV's and radios used to be easy to repair. And needed it often. Tube equipment requires high voltages, high currents, generate a lot of heat and tubes burn out as often as light bulbs. That's why you used to be able to run down to the corner drugstore and find a tube tester and a supply of tubes. Today I have tv's that are over 20 years old and radios over 30 that have never needed any kind of repair at all. That wouldn't have happened with tube technology.

Time and technology marches on.

A 20 year old tv is pretty much useless today no matter what kind of shape it's in. Unless you get an external digital to analog converter for broadcast signals. Or have cable.

FM pretty much killed AM broadcast radio. Sure, it's still around, but for me there is absolutely nothing on talk radio I want to hear and that's pretty much all that's left on AM, at least around here. So sure, maybe your Atwater-Kent still works or can be restored, but it can only pick up crap.

It's really a myth that consumer goods used to be built to last, even if some of them actually have lasted. A manufacturer cannot really stay in business without continued sales. It's not really in the manufacturer's best interest to sell you something only once. Sure, they like to advertise that they do. After all, who's going to buy something that the manufacturer comes right out and says is going to break in a couple of years?

I think that the main reason that some old items seem to last forever is that when they were manufactured the materials available today hadn't been invented. Things were built out of cast iron because that's what they had. Not because they wanted to build something that might have a useful life of 50 years.

So why use the more modern materials? Cost. Build them cheaper than the competition or go out of business. Most people aren't going to pay $400 for a $20 coffee pot no matter what.

All that said, cheap junk is cheap junk no matter when it was manufactured. There's plenty of cheap junk manufactured in the "Golden Age" that hasn't survived, I'm sure. And quite a few quality items built today that will be the subject of "they don't build them like they used to" discussions in the future.

 

[tonyb]

The corollary to things used to be repairable is that they needed repair. Often.

Your entire post is worth quoting, Mr. Wagner, but I don't wish to use up all that space on the page, just repeating what's already there to be read. Yup, it's often true that they don't make 'em the way they used to. And thank goodness for that, eh?

I'm in general agreement with every bit of it, Jim. And it certainly doesn't hurt the argument that it is so well presented. Should our paths ever cross in the "real" world, I'd gladly buy you a beverage of your choosing.