Not impressed ELC

[Ralph_Phillips]

Thank you. That vintage town is getting added to my list of places to see before dropping dead.

 

[HPA Rep]

Hey Xopher. I wonder if this isn't a split hide issue.

I'm no expert by any stretch, but I understand that ELC went to using split hides sometime in the recent past. I have heard it described as having a papery texture and my recent Irvin (about 2.5years old) does indeed have the look of a brown paper bag, particularly down at the sleeve ends. My 15 year old Redskin B-6 did not have this texture.

It's always good to see your awesome redskin B-6, Deacon; that has some nice patina, creasing, and it fits to perfection.

I must, however, correct you on the above quote: Eastman not only doesn't use any split sheepskin, but sheepskin as used with the fleece on isn't available as a split. Split hides are when the top is removed (the portion with the natural grain and any attendant imperfections, which would be the fleece portion in this case), and then the remaining bottom portion (the split) is sanded smooth and/or given an impregnated, artificial grain so as to create a perfect-looking piece of leather.

Splits are sold to those who want cheaper leather for cheaper products, and it's typically found in cowhide, but horsehide and surely some others can be purchased in splits. Eastman does not now nor have they in the past ever used split hides for any items, including their cowhide, horsehide, and goatskin products.

The parchment-like hand you are referring to is just a result of differing vegetable tanning from some in the past: there's more than one way to veg. tan leather, plus extra drumming will yield a more pliable skin that has less parchment feel to it.

All ELC sheepskin is fully veg. tanned now, not just the redskins; the redskins have always been veg. tanned since introduction in 1997.

The hand that I think this poster was describing is, quite actually, quite authentic when one compares to some vintage sheepskin, especially that which was produced earlier and which is in newish condition; I don't think I've ever handled any vintage redskins, including my unworn, NOS HLB B-3 jacket, that didn't have a crispiness to the skins one could compare to what is been described as papery or parchment-like.

And remember, as I've posted in the past, the earlier vintage skins that have this hand are the very skins on garments that are the most desirable, due significantly because they were subject to better tanning procedures and have held up quite well (compared to much of the skins from 1942 on).

Eastman products we sell are fully warranted against defects, so anyone with concerns or issues is welcome to address them directly and, if indeed the item is defective, it will be appropriately remedied.

Thank you.

 

[Deacon211]

Edited to remove erroneous supposition, please see my post below.

 

[mihai]

As time passes all manufacturers (high-end ones included) will produce goods with less good/strong materials. This is mostly due to suppliers, market context. Demand, prices go up, top notch materials become scarce.
This is why I stock on smth good while having the chance. Who knows if future batches will offer same quality? (This is one of the reasons why I treat my clothing/shoes very gently and avoid distressing them)

 

[HPA Rep]

Hey Charles,

Thanks for the clarification. I could have sworn at some point someone suggested the use of split hides recently in the Irvin. Thanks for setting that straight.

You may well be correct in your memory, Deacon, as someone certainly could have said that. The internet is a magnet for misinformation, disinformation, rumor, and unfounded stories, all of which is spoken as fact by those who act or think they know something. If Winston Churchill had lived in this era, I can hear him saying something profound on the subject, perhaps along the lines of this: Never in the course of human history have so many known so little about so much.

I personally prefer the smoother tanning method and truly the papery finish does seem to exist on my Irvin only at the sleeve ends. But, as I said, it doesn't seem to affect the wear or durability of the leather in any way and, once the jacket breaks in more fully, I suspect will be hard to even discern.

I agree, as it shouldn't impact the service length of the garment. I have an ELC Perry Sportswear Mixed-Batch B-3 that has this skin type and it's now three years old - it's as rugged as can be, and looks and feels better now than when new even though it was a winner when new.

Indeed, some sheepskin is a bit thinner than others in select areas, but that's the nature of sheep vs. horse or cow, for example, but even then, the overall longevity is still there and Eastman backs that up, as are purchases made from HPA. Having said that, it's sheepskin, so as I've said to some customers, if you want to shove a screwdriver through the jacket, you'll succeed in this effort. Sheepskin is never going to be 3-ounce horse or cow, but whether it's an ELC B-6, D-1, B-3, AN-J-4, etc., the sheepskin will be quality and this is backed up by retailer and manufacturer, but subject to normal wear and tear and abuse, of course.

In any case I think that, barring some strange QA failing, the OP's jacket might just need a little tough love to soften it up a bit and get rid of that "fragile" feeling.
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Tough love is good, as is sleeping in it. Yawn, I could use a nap ...

 

[Deacon211]

Agreed Charles. I recall it being discussed at some length in one of the famous leather threads of the past.

Edit: Well, out of curiosity, I went looking for the discussion to which I was referring earlier to see if perhaps I had gotten it wrong. After not a very exhaustive search in the Irvin thread, I concluded that whatever discussion I was reading, it had been from some years ago when I was researching Irvin makers.

As such, and so as to not perpetuate any non-factual information regarding ELC's skins, I'm going to remove as much of (what turned out to be) my incorrect statements regarding ELC's use of split hides.

Charles is welcome to remove or leave as much of my quoted posts as he likes. My goal here is simply to not kick an inaccurate can any further down the road than necessary.

There are other sources of opinions on ELC's hides elsewhere, so I will let the intrepid internet explorer make up their own mind on the subject.

Leaving the one opinion that I have some basis of expertise in, owning three ELC's, the hides have been pretty durable for me, and ultimately break in nicely...but do require some loving patience before a full appreciation can be made.

My apologies for what seems to be a thread hijack and passing on what seems to be bad info to boot!

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[John Lever]

I think I am correct in saying that original jackets were made from sheepskin. Jackets today are usually made from lambskin,( sheep under 1 year old ) it has much thinner skin and the hides are quite small some only a couple of feet long. I know tanning methods can puff up the thickness of leather but think the lamb vs sheep difference is significant.

 

[Smithy]

I've only handled 4 original Irvin jackets in my time but my opinion is my ELC Irvin (admittedly an older 2007 version) is virtually indistinguishable in terms of heft, feel, weight and how it has worn from an original. Most people seem to focus only on the fleece and whilst mine has developed the "separation" of the pile that originals show my ELC has also developed the extensive "veining" of the outside shell.

I have no experience of the new ELC models but my 2007 one is looking fantastically close to a wartime original.

 

[mihai]

I think I am correct in saying that original jackets were made from sheepskin. Jackets today are usually made from lambskin,( sheep under 1 year old ) it has much thinner skin and the hides are quite small some only a couple of feet long. I know tanning methods can puff up the thickness of leather but think the lamb vs sheep difference is significant.

"Great", you pay through the nose for a jacket(1000 usd +) to find out 10-20(dep on usage extent) years later that it suddenly starts cracking, displaying weaknesses. I do not afford to buy such jacket every few years so that I can subject it to wear similar to war time ones(getting it wet, dried repeatedly, abrasion).
What you say makes sense with the actual industrial animals raising.

 

[Deacon211]

"Great", you pay through the nose for a jacket(1000 usd +) to find out 10-20(dep on usage extent) years later that it suddenly starts cracking, displaying weaknesses. I do not afford to buy such jacket every few years so that I can subject it to wear similar to war time ones(getting it wet, dried repeatedly, abrasion).
What you say makes sense with the actual industrial animals raising.

I'm not wholly sure what you are saying. My B-6 isn't anywhere near its end of life. I have 15 years in it (admittedly not flying P-38s) and wouldn't be surprised if it had another 15 years.

Whether modern repro skins are as good or worse (or better) than those available during the war, a jacket that lasts a quarter to a third of your adult life is still a pretty good investment I think.


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[IXL]

........ a jacket that lasts a quarter to a third of your adult life is still a pretty good investment I think.

Well, you know...when you look at it that way.......

 

[Stand By]

Is that diner actually called "ISIS", HD? A bit unfortunate if it is …!
Great photos though!

As for the main subject, as HD and others have stated, the B-6 is a thinner sheepskin - and I wore my old ELC B-6 until it softened and draped more like a substantial cardigan! But at no time did I ever think it would tear on me.
And my subsequent ELC RW B-6 feels the same and I have total faith in it.
However, my sheepskin ELC RW B-3 did tear on me one time and I recorded the accident and the repair here, so you can see photos of where it tore and how:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/a-brilliant-repair-by-alexander-leathers.73104/#post-1661751
As I said at the time, it was MY FAULT and I was careless in how I put the jacket on one early morning (not paying attention on "auto-pilot") and I accidentally folded the collar in on itself and dragged it on, when I shouldn't have and paid more attention to what I was doing … so just like using an original NOS Talon (which my B-3 and B-6 both have), one just has to be "present" in mind of how these things are treated and exercise a little care when using them, which they deserve. I learnt my lesson the hard way - but it turned out tremendously well and the repair is still 100% after two tough winters and a lot of service!

Re; Mihai and your "paying through the nose" comment: I'd agree with Deacon that these jackets are a serious outlay of cash at first, but as the years go by, they become cheaper.
I wore my old Aviation Leathercraft Irvin for 18 years and it served me supremely well throughout until, in 2005, I needed something bigger on the chest. Knowing that I loved the Irvin and another would be worn a great deal too and would be another good investment, I wanted an upgrade and was happy to get something better and was prepared to pay more for that. My old Irvin cost me an entire month's wages as a poor 3rd year apprentice and my mates thought I had seriously taken leave of my senses to lash out so much cash - but 275 Pounds (as it cost then in 1987) divided by 18 years = 15 Pounds and 27 pence per year! 15 quid; the price of a Blu-Ray movie you might only ever watch twice.
And in the end, I sold the jacket on eBay and got 100 pounds back for it! It went to a movie production company in Holland. So actually it's much less than 15 quid! It owed me nothing.
So these things, Mihai - no matter from GW, Aero or ELC, Aces High or LW or SB or whoever - yes, one "pays through the nose" with these companies upfront, but they are all great investments that hold value over time and, with some TLC, their service life is better measured in decades (it's not so much how long they will last - but who you'll leave them to!) and they only look better as time goes by too, whereas contemporary jackets look cheap, shabby and dated - and a repair, like on my B-3, only adds character. It's how you look at that initial cost that will decide what you see - and the true value.
So in my experience, going for something cheaper/more readily affordable is in fact a false economy. Remember: Buy cheap; buy twice.

 

[ButteMT61]

Dunno, overtime I hear "Isis" I think of this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072516/

 

[HoosierDaddy]

It's the reproduction movie theater that has an actual movie theater marquee from the '40s (I think). yep the original Indiana theater was called ISIS. However, I have no idea what that stood for.
HD

 

[John Lever]

I have several Eastman over 30 years old they are as tough as old boots.

 

[Stand By]

It's the reproduction movie theater that has an actual movie theater marquee from the '40s (I think). yep the original Indiana theater was called ISIS. However, I have no idea what that stood for.
HD

Wikipedia says it's stood on the same site since 1936, so you were close!
Can't find out the reason for the name. But I did see the 3'10" trailer for the new Peanuts film that's playing there. I feel like I've just seen the entire movie!

 

[nick123]

The conspiracy theorists believe "ISIS" was created by Western powers and is a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Isis of Egyptology. (Take a look at the dollar bill). I'll stop there...

 

[mihai]

@Deacon211, Stand By - I've been aware a high end jacket is an investment over a longer period. All I questioned was modern sheepskin ability to take a serious abuse (getting wet/dried repeatedly, abrasion). I guess that most of these jackets are more/less wardrobe queens. Therefore I'm not sure how relevant is that such over cared jacket held on for 20 years.

ELC B-3 used jackets show up for sale online from time to time. However I've never been too impressed by the sheepskin consistency, to buy one. Sometimes you can tell from the way it bends in pictures that it could use being thicker.
@Stand By - not sure about that jacket's history but to get such a rip does not look good for these high-end products.

I wanted to order an An-j/ M-445/446 sheepskin jacket. I found a VGC LW online and took it. Less stress that something could go wrong when paying full price for an order. There are too many variables(materials consistency - the most important).

 

[Stand By]

@Deacon211, Stand By - I've been aware a high end jacket is an investment over a longer period. All I questioned was modern sheepskin ability to take a serious abuse (getting wet/dried repeatedly, abrasion). I guess that most of these jackets are more/less wardrobe queens. Therefore I'm not sure how relevant is that such over cared jacket held on for 20 years.

ELC B-3 used jackets show up for sale online from time to time. However I've never been too impressed by the sheepskin consistency, to buy one. Sometimes you can tell from the way it bends in pictures that it could use being thicker.
@Stand By - not sure about that jacket's history but to get such a rip does not look good for these high-end products.

I wanted to order an An-j/ M-445/446 sheepskin jacket. I found a VGC LW online and took it. Less stress that something could go wrong when paying full price for an order. There are too many variables(materials consistency - the most important).

ELC jackets are made as per the originals. In the late 1980s, I was fortunate to have a close look at my old doctor's Irvin that he wore during WW2 in the Fleet Air Arm flying in Swordfish. He said it had "been in the drink" a few times and it was in great condition. I was surprised at how much lighter it was than my bulky Aviation Leathercraft at that time but it is how they were and I can attest that ELC's 1942 Pattern Irvin is a spot-on reproduction of my former doctor's Irvin - which is why I bought one and I love it.
And being leather - and not a modern rip-stop material or Gore-Tex - one cannot expect indestructibility from a natural material and there will always be variances in the leather itself. It's what makes each piece unique in its own way. Rather than a short-coming, I see it as a plus.
But if you want a tougher sheepskin, then perhaps you could also look at Aviation Leathercraft. They are over-engineered compared to originals - and that said, being thicker, it isn't as possible to tailor them as well, as told to me by Alan of ELC., which I'd agree with.
My old Aviation Leathercraft Irvin only ever got one small hole in its 18 years of service - during my very first winter here and I was wearing it when I unsuspectingly rode my bike across wet streetcar tracks in the dark for the very first time and I swiftly discovered that, taken at the wrong angle and when wet, those tracks are more slippery than black ice - and I took a mightily hard fall in the middle of the intersection, landing hard on my right arm. Sure, it put a small hole in the elbow (which I never deemed worthy of repair) - but I defy any modern material to have shrugged off the fall I took that night and done better.
I have worn my ELC jackets in all weathers for a decade and I've fallen on ice (hard as concrete) in my jackets too many times to recount and I've never ripped or torn any of them. IMO, "Wardrobe Queens" they are not, but I hope you're happy with your LW and it serves you well.

 

[Smithy]

All I questioned was modern sheepskin ability to take a serious abuse (getting wet/dried repeatedly, abrasion). I guess that most of these jackets are more/less wardrobe queens. Therefore I'm not sure how relevant is that such over cared jacket held on for 20 years.

As Charles pointed out earlier sheepskin is not horsehide or steerhide but ELC's is certainly robust enough.

I am very hard on all my jackets, I never baby them, not even the Irvin. I've worn it whilst it was snowing and in a couple of torrential downpours without any trouble. I've worn it whilst carrying and stacking firewood, fixing a drainpipe in a storm, slept in it, been tobogganing in it (and that includes crashing off on ice at a fair lick of speed), and even got in a scrap whilst wearing it with a nutcase on drugs who attacked my mother-in-law. I wouldn't hesitate in a second to get another ELC sheepskin jacket if I needed another.

Another thing which may or may not be relevant, but it can be a surprise to handle a WWII era sheepskin flying jacket (or accurate repro such as an ELC) as they are lighter than what you might expect if you've never had your paws on a real one, and especially if you've tried on or had something like an Aviation Leathercraft which tends to have a lot of added heft from the overly thick fleece of the sheepskin.