Northwest Hats, Eugene, Ore.

[The Lost Cowboy]

Love the yin and yang vent pattern.

Yes, me too. Mike did a wonderful job getting the details right that I requested. The entire ordering experience was a real pleasure.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I have 12 felts from Northwest Hats. A couple are rabbit and the rest are beaver. I personally like the stiffer crown. I have never asked for anything different but feel like if I did he would make it however I wanted. At least I think he would. The 14 felts I have from other custom hatters (Art Fawcett, Mike Gannon, Mike Penman, Black Sheep, and Peters Bros) are pretty much the same. But I never asked for a "vintage" feel from any of them. I don't think any of my customs have faded. But I don't wear them anywhere near as often as I do my vintage hats.

I too have noticed that my vintage hats have faded over the years. One of things I have done in the past when a full restoration was performed was to have the hat turned inside out to get the original color on the top of the brim and outside of the crown. BTW the ribbons also fade. To the point of looking vastly different.

Excellent tip about turning the hat inside out. Thanks for that.

Again, I am more than satisfied with my Northwest hat. It has been a constant, reliable companion and always gets complimented. And I still wear it more than I wear any other hat (we just recently returned from five weeks in Amsterdam and once again he was essential for that trip).

But I am interested to try a softer felt and that's really the deciding factor. I have my eye set on Gannon, although the Hufvud hats I've been seeing in the Lounge have caught my attention.

 

[Rmccamey]

That, then, begs the questions "How stiff is stiff" and what, exactly, would Mike advertise? Are Northwest hat crowns generally stiffer than current Gannon "vintage" (my use of the term) crowns? Yes. How much stiffer? Hmmmmm?

Excellent information about the factories, thank you.

My true complaint about the stiff crown is not actually the stiffness - it is that NOWHERE on the website, Facebook page or personal emails was it ever stated that he makes stiff felt hats. Nor was I the only customer to be surprised by this detail when the hat arrived.

It's not a small complaint. I truly expected to get a soft felt, I never even imagined getting a stiff felt. Color me inexperienced but I still believe that is a detail that should be clearly explicated and to this day I don't see it on the website (meaning, I still don't know from his website if Mike is exclusively producing stiff felted hats).

I can imagine ordering an Indy hat and getting a stiff crown: I would be truly disappointed. And as you say, that is one detail about the felt that the hat maker has control over, so it should be transparent from the get go (in my opinion).

When this issue was first raised on this forum, I believe it was Redfokker who commented that the felt should soften up over time. My purpose with this post is partially to dispel that notion since the hat is just as stiff today as it ever was.

Having said all of that, this is still my most-worn hat and my best quality hat from a structural standpoint. It is a true work horse and a bosom traveling companion. I have updated my original critique to highlight those qualities more. It was absolutely worth the money I invested in it, to be sure.

 

[belfastboy]

This is a valid point, for sure. It also helps me highlight my concern more clearly.

It is not that the deep navy blue color has simply lightened over time. Of course I see that on vintage hats, as you point out. Dark browns become lighter browns, dark tans, lighter tans, etc.

The concern is that this color is washing out: the hat is actually becoming white.

I don't know if it is this particular color or just my hat or the fact that I have worn it so hard, but no other hat I own - vintage or modern - is showing an effect like this, no matter how hard they've been worn.

This is why I asked after other Northwest owners' experiences: is it just the navy blue that is having this effect or maybe it was just the batch of navy blue that went into this hat or maybe it is to be expected from bespoke hats in general?

It's challenging to convey the white-out in photos because it looks like light reflection, but it is not. It is where the hat is literally turning white.

Here is a photo of that effect:
View attachment 527619


Whereas here is the hats original dye:
View attachment 527620

To my experience, this is an extraordinary color loss, but this is my ONLY bespoke so I can only compare it to vintage felts (mainly, because I have not worn my modern hats very much except Akubras - but none of them have whited out despite being worn VERY hard).

As a custom hatter we are captive to the materials available to us that we have to work with. Dark felts tend to have the dye wash out, especially blacks/dark blues and sometimes dark greens. So when I refurbish vintage hats a ton of the dark dye comes out in the wash. It does not happen to the brown hats only black & blue. I don't know why.

Now, and I realize i have a dog in the fight as a custom hatter, I don't think a hatter can be held responsible for what happens to a felt 5 years down the road after heavy use. Perhaps you were unlucky to get a hat out of a bad dye batch. It can happen, perhaps the dye was not set fully. Who knows.

If you eventually want another hat I would contact Mike and ask his input. Perhaps like a car battery or tire warranty he will give you a prorated refund or prorated discount on your next hat.

Prior to becoming a hatter when I was a purchaser I always assumed the responsibility for what I ordered. I did the homework and discussed the potential of the finished product so we were both clear at inception on the details. But that was back in the day when Winchester was usually the only choice. I do think both as a purchaser and a maker the onus does fall on the buyer to be clear on what the maker is making and what the buyer will end up with. Now with greater choice in the market I understand it is prudent to speak with the buyer specifically about how/when the hat will be used. From that then what are the qualities of the hat that will fit that purpose, softness/vintage feel or a more stiff/rugged hat for outdoorsy uses. Different horses for courses.
I would suggest that if you had purchased a softer felt the hat would perhaps not have stood up to the rugged use you put it through and may be disappointed today with its lack of shape/definition.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

That, then, begs the questions "How stiff is stiff" and what, exactly, would Mike advertise? Are Northwest hat crowns generally stiffer than current Gannon "vintage" (my use of the term) crowns? Yes. How much stiffer? Hmmmmm?

The felt on my NW hat is stiff like a western. And others have reported the same. That level of stiffness is the level that should be made apparent. I literally cannot crease the crown of my hat in any other way no matter how much steam I put on it. That’s damn stiff and I don’t believe it is outrageous to expect that such a detail be communicated at some point in the ordering process at the very least.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

This is a valid point, for sure. It also helps me highlight my concern more clearly.

It is not that the deep navy blue color has simply lightened over time. Of course I see that on vintage hats, as you point out. Dark browns become lighter browns, dark tans, lighter tans, etc.

The concern is that this color is washing out: the hat is actually becoming white.

I don't know if it is this particular color or just my hat or the fact that I have worn it so hard, but no other hat I own - vintage or modern - is showing an effect like this, no matter how hard they've been worn.

This is why I asked after other Northwest owners' experiences: is it just the navy blue that is having this effect or maybe it was just the batch of navy blue that went into this hat or maybe it is to be expected from bespoke hats in general?

It's challenging to convey the white-out in photos because it looks like light reflection, but it is not. It is where the hat is literally turning white.

Here is a photo of that effect:
View attachment 527619


Whereas here is the hat's original dye:
View attachment 527620

To my experience, this is an extraordinary color loss, but this is my ONLY bespoke so I can only compare it to vintage felts (mainly, because I have not worn my modern hats very much except Akubras - but none of them have whited out either despite being worn VERY hard).

You wear your hats like I wish I could wear mine. I’m lucky if I get 30 minutes a day under one.

I have several blue hats, but none have the use or exposure of yours. Your fading is really something. The ribbon too looks to have seriously changed color. Have you sent some photos of Mike at NW?

I kind of see it as a great hat fulfilling its destiny and I like the well-earned wear and tear. Not sure why this felt bleached out when others worn as hard have not.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

.
I would suggest that if you had purchased a softer felt the hat would perhaps not have stood up to the rugged use you put it through and may be disappointed today with its lack of shape/definition.

This is a very valid point and I am quite ready to admit that the stiff felt has been a benefit when it comes to hard travel. However, I never imagined that I would get a stiff felt, so of course I did not ask about it.

As for discussing with Mike the uses of the hat, we had a lot of that. I was living in SE Asia at the time so of course we discussed the best option for that environment and for a hat that would travel well. We put the vent holes in it for that reason and we left the liner unsewn so I could remove it when the weather was too hot.

You seem intent on blaming my criticisms on me, user error. Could be true, this was my only bespoke experience and I was a complete newbie to felt when I ordered this hat.

But I think these concerns are valid and this is the forum for them to be made public. This is where people will look to make educated choices and for someone who wants a hat to wear hard, I believe this discussion would benefit them.

It’s also a good place to hear your counter arguments, so I certainly welcome them.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

You wear your hats like I wish I could wear mine. I’m lucky if I get 30 minutes a day under one.

I have several blue hats, but none have the use or exposure of yours. Your fading is really something. The ribbon too looks to have seriously changed color. Have you sent some photos of Mike at NW?

I kind of see it as a great hat fulfilling its destiny and I like the well-earned wear and tear. Not sure why this felt bleached out when others worn as hard have not.

Lol - being a trucker has its benefits, one of which is getting to wear cool clothes for practical reasons!

And I agree, this hat has true character, which is another reason why I continue to reach for it. I mean, the fact that I wear it ALL THE TIME - despite the concerns - must be its greatest selling point.

Here we are in Amsterdam a few months back.

 

[belfastboy]

This is a very valid point and I am quite ready to admit that the stiff felt has been a benefit when it comes to hard travel. However, I never imagined that I would get a stiff felt, so of course I did not ask about it.

As for discussing with Mike the uses of the hat, we had a lot of that. I was living in SE Asia at the time so of course we discussed the best option for that environment and for a hat that would travel well. We put the vent holes in it for that reason and we left the liner unsewn so I could remove it when the weather was too hot.

You seem intent on blaming my criticisms on me, user error. Could be true, this was my only bespoke experience and I was a complete newbie to felt when I ordered this hat.

But I think these concerns are valid and this is the forum for them to be made public. This is where people will look to make educated choices and for someone who wants a hat to wear hard, I believe this discussion would benefit them.

It’s also a good place to hear your counter arguments, so I certainly welcome them.

Can you recall if you ordered dress weight or western weight?

There is certainly no blame given nor attached to my comments. I am offering my perspective, expectations and my process when ordering as an alternate way of seeing it.

 

[Frunobulax]

Arrived today.

View attachment 522643 View attachment 522644 View attachment 522645 View attachment 522646 View attachment 522647 View attachment 522648 View attachment 522649 View attachment 522650 View attachment 522651

Killer, Bill.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Can you recall if you ordered dress weight or western weight?

There is certainly no blame given nor attached to my comments. I am offering my perspective, expectations and my process when ordering as an alternate way of seeing it.

Dress weight for sure. Again, because I was living in tropical climate that was actually a point of communication.

To be honest, I am learning a lot from this interaction so thank you for taking the time.

 

[Frunobulax]

The reality is that ALL custom hatters buy beaver felts from just 3 factories. That to my knowledge is the sum total of all factories making felted beaver in the world. Mike uses Winchester felts, made in Tennessee and they are top quality so I don't think buying from one of the other two factories is a sure solution. UV rays are tough on all things and hats being at the top of the head suffer greatly.

On most hat restorations I do there is always some fading.....the degree is proportional to age but even in 10 year old hats the fading can be marked.

In terms of the stiffness; each custom hatter has their own way of working the felt and in a sense they bring their signature look/feel to the hat. Mike's hats (I own 9 of his creations) tend to be on the stiffer side. If I want a hat with a softer more vintage feel I will either make it myself or order one from a hatter that offers that vintage feel.

Winchester beaver felts are about in the middle in terms of stiffness and density. On the softer/vintage end of the spectrum is the FEPSA 95gr beaver, twice as expensive as Winchester they offer excellent quality with a softer/true vintage feel to the felt.

On the other side are the Ukraine beaver felts...thicker at 160grams and somewhat stiffer than Winchester but they can be worked into a soft feel,, not vintage soft but certainly much less stiff. These are in the middle price wise between the other two.

So before you purchase another custom....come to terms with what it is you want in a hat and then shop to find a custom maker and a felt that will fit for you.

Q: As they aren't suppliers, are you including Hatco in this lineup? Does Borsalino still make their own felt?

And as an unsolicited observation, when I got my Gus Miller, it was much stiffer and thicker than I anticipated. I mean, I thought a vintage guy would make a vintage hat, right?

Not that I'm complaining, I love that hat, it has one of the best profiles, and it's still a great piece of work, but not what I first expected.

 

[belfastboy]

Q: As they aren't suppliers, are you includinh Hatco in yhis lineup? Does Borsalino still make their own felt?

And as an unsolicited observation, when I got my Gus Miller, it was much stiffer and thicker than I anticipated. I mean, I thought a vintage guy would make a vintage hat, right?

Not that I'm complaining, I love that hat, it has one of the best profiles, and it's still a great piece of work, but not what I first expected.

I was only referencing felt supplies available to the small custom hat market not the BIG BOYS of the hat world. I have a Gus Miller made maybe 25-30 years ago and it is very soft....but I bought if second hand and it still stinks of pommade or cheap cologne!

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Dark felts tend to have the dye wash out, especially blacks/dark blues and sometimes dark greens. So when I refurbish vintage hats a ton of the dark dye comes out in the wash. It does not happen to the brown hats only black & blue.

Now, and I realize i have a dog in the fight as a custom hatter, I don't think a hatter can be held responsible for what happens to a felt 5 years down the road after heavy use. Perhaps you were unlucky to get a hat out of a bad dye batch. It can happen, perhaps the dye was not set fully. Who knows.

These are two very good points. First, I wondered if dark hats just lose their dye and maybe that is why very very few vintage hats were made in navy blue.

I also don’t feel that Mike is accountable for the hat five years down the road. Not at all. I can’t remember when it started washing out but I truly only raise it as an issue because NO OTHER HAT I own displays this whitening effect.

But, it is my only navy blue hat, and I never wear my two black hats.

However, the stiff crown is a different issue because that was there already five years ago. I truly feel that potential customers have a right to know this detail about Mike’s hats, whether they hear it directly from Mike or from other customers.

 

[belfastboy]

These are two very good points. First, I wondered if dark hats just lose their dye and maybe that is why very very few vintage hats were made in navy blue.

I also don’t feel that Mike is accountable for the hat five years down the road. Not at all. I can’t remember when it states washing out but I truly only raise it as an issue because NO OTHER HAT I own displays this whitening effect.

However, the stiff brim is a different issue because that was there already five years ago. I truly feel that potential customers have a right to know this detail about Mike’s hats, whether they get it from Mike or from other customers.

caveat emptor is my personal guideline for all purchases.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

caveat emptor is my personal guideline for all purchases.

I don’t disagree within reason. I don’t believe anybody expects that a Fedora will come with a stiff crown or that dress weight would turn out as stiff as western weight. But you and I seem to disagree on that point.

However, I did not complain to Mike when I received it for the very reason you mention.

It should also be noted that I wrote a product review and not a customer complaint, and this detail is exactly appropriate for a product review.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I don’t disagree within reason. I don’t believe anybody expects that a Fedora will come with a stiff crown or that dress weight would turn out as stiff as western weight. But you and I seem to disagree on that point.

However, I did not complain to Mike when I received it for the very reason you mention.

It should also be noted that I wrote a product review and not a customer complaint, and this detail is exactly appropriate for a product review.

I think Mike at NW is a master at what he does. I don’t mean to impugn or disparage him in any way.
But…if I had know that my pure beaver fedora was going to be as stiff/firm as it was then I would not have bought it as other hatters make fedoras that are closer to what I personally was looking for. No dig on Mike. I hope that potential custom hat buyers can read all the comments and have a better expectation on what their custom hat will be like. I wish I had made a more informed choice. Many customers will prefer and be better served by a NW firm felt hat, and those guys should find these discussions reassuring. Those looking for a softer more vintage-like hat should likewise find these discussions useful when choosing a hatter.

I’ve ordered four hats from NW after my first fedora. I ordered them knowing what they would be like and wasn’t in any way disappointed. Mike makes a great hat, but he doesn’t make the best of every type of hat and it’s not reasonable to expect him to (not that anyone was claiming otherwise).

I’ve never seen bleaching like your navy hat, but then I’m not sure I’ve seen modern custom as well-used as yours. I’m curious to find out if the bleaching cause is ever discovered.

 

[1961MJS]

Hi
I have no idea how much my latest Rough Rider hat from Mike Moore FELT faded. Never looked under the ribbon much. I don't think it's faded. Its made with a Western Felt and is supposed to be pretty stiff. The Brown Rough Rider bow now matches the Natural un-dyed felt pretty well. The back side is still very brown though. It IS the hat I wear the most also.
Later

 

[deadlyhandsome]

After a seven month wait, my latest Northwest arrived today. It’s 100% beaver (Ukrainian felt not Winchester or FEPSA). The color is granite. 6 ½” open crown and a 4 ⅛” wide raw edge brim with a fantastic edge curl. Mike is truly a master at curling brims. The felt is very firm/stiff but it also has a velvety hand. Absolutely love this hat and couldn’t be happier with how it turned out.

 

[Bill Hughes]

Another montecristi semi-calado in the works.