New Standard & Strange X Simmons Bilt Natural Horsehide Jacket

[red devil]

Let's put this in simple terms:
- I am too long in the tooth to take for gospel someone telling me some people are bad just because... sorry that's just it.
- Nobody is telling you not to share your opinions
- Crying den of thieves and other things like this every time someone post an SB jacket is not helpful
- Adding something constructive such as details on the court case, or the fact that they didn't go for a civil case is interesting

Basically, if I had skin in the game whether a personal connection to the Calders such as @Fanch or something else, I would still find the "Den of thieves" comment unproductive... the only thing it does is make you lose credibility. And in losing credibility it actually hurts what you are aiming for.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Grammar

 

[red devil]

Ken called me from Scotland just as he returned out of retirement and was discovering how Mark Moye ( US Rep) and Will Lauder (among others) had together flagrantly jeopardized his company. He was wondering if Mark had a drug problem to cause him to keep customers money but not order or ship the Aero jackets. Ken seemed very determined to dig into these discoveries and get a grip on them. It took him several years to repair the damage.

That is definitely much more interesting then "den of thieves comment"

 

[HoosierDaddy]

....... I would still find the "Den of thieves" comment unproductive... the only thing it does is make you lose credibility. And in losing credibility it actually hurts what you are aiming for.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Grammar

To you it does.

Calling thieves exactly what they are doesn't make anyone lose credibility or hurt anyone's aim.

Sidestepping, ignoring or dismissing that they were and still are a company of thieves does hurt your credibility though.

 

[red devil]

To you it does.

Calling thieves exactly what they are doesn't make anyone lose credibility or hurt anyone's aim.

Sidestepping, ignoring or dismissing that they were and still are a company of thieves does hurt your credibility though.

This is highly debatable...

 

[Sloan1874]

The real question is who knows what? And the answer for most readers here is impossible to figure out. A comment such as "den of thieves" doesn't add anything to the conversation, so I stand by what I said. If you want to add something to this conversation take a leaf from @Superfluous 's book. He actually added some very interesting info regarding who still has significant control in the company and that made most readers think.

As the only person on here who sat through three weeks of court evidence, I know pretty much everything you need to know on this case, plus I know about the evidence that wasn't led in the end but which would have made some of the witnesses for the defence look very complicit.
The patterns were taken from Aero's factory by Will for them to be copied over a period of months. They were returned less than 24 hours before the police were due to knock on his door.
The bottom line with SB/AL is that it was set up with the specific intent to replace Aero lock-stock and barrel. Will had run the company into the ground, knew the company was in trouble (because he'd put it there), and was apparently bent on stepping in when Aero went belly up.
So, to be clear: SB/AL was built on the foundations of another person's decades of hard work and skill. The people involved in its inception, and by all accounts still are, did this knowingly. SB/AL are therefore, to me, fundamentally tainted.
This may not bother you, which is fine, but if there's a recurring theme on the Lounge its about the ethics of production, and I'd no more knowingly buy a jacket from SB than I would buy one from a third world sweatshop.

 

[dannyk]

The issue I personally would have and would bother me is if the people in charge during all this shady business are still with the company. @Superfluous posted some links that would show at least a few of them are. To me this means I would not purchase an SB jacket. I dont believe in what wrongs a company or certain individuals may have done at one time forever tarnishing a brand. If SB had all new leadership I would confidently and proudly purchase from them if they had jacket I wanted. It would not be these hardworking peoples fault. They are just trying to use their skills to make a living. If 10 years from now its all new people with no connection existed it would not be fair to them to keep bringing this up. But as it stands some individuals are still top brass there who were there during this debacle. To me this precludes a purchase from them, not withstanding a second hand purchase. If Im on ebay or here and someone is selling an SB jacket thats not giving them my money so Im totally cool with that. Thats my 2 cents so to speak and thats all I really have to contribute and will leave it at that.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

I find it interesting how the term “Den of Thieves” has generated so much emotional attention. I understand exactly what it means particularily in the context used.
I do not find it offensive but quite the opposite, 3 words that describe succinctly a nasty topic.
Super, HD and Sloan thank you for summarizing so clearly a story i was unclear on.
I know where to spend my money now!
Others...whatever!
Bowen

 

[red devil]

I find it interesting how the term “Den of Thieves” has generated so much emotional attention. I understand exactly what it means particularily in the context used.
I do not find it offensive but quite the opposite, 3 words that describe succinctly a nasty topic.
Super, HD and Sloan thank you for summarizing so clearly a story i was unclear on.
I know where to spend my money now!
Others...whatever!
Bowen

Nothing emotional about this... you will notice that the discussion has become much more interesting to read and follow since I called it out here... my job is pretty much done here

 

[GregO]

Sorry if my Den of Thieves comment offended anyone. It was the nicest thing I could find to describe them though.

Carry on...

 

[HoosierDaddy]

No need to apologize Grego. Only one poster objected as he feels it is his job to scold us into what he considers a better direction.

 

[Seb Lucas]

No need to apologize Grego. Only one poster objected as he feels it is his job to scold us into what he considers a better direction.

Well said. I had a big laugh from that post.

 

[El Marro]

If I were the OP I’d be a bit upset by this behaviour, but that’s just me.

I, the OP, am not upset by the turn the thread has taken. Partly because I knew it would go here sooner or later. Also because I value the input from the members who have spoken their mind about SB. I was not on the forum when all of this stuff went down and therefore I don’t have the same perspective as the members who were here during that period.

 

[Peacoat]

I, the OP, am not upset by the turn the thread has taken. Partly because I knew it would go here sooner or later. Also because I value the input from the members who have spoken their mind about SB. I was not on the forum when all of this stuff went down and therefore I don’t have the same perspective as the members who were here during that period.

I, too, knew where it would go. My only surprise is that it took so long to get there.

I was on the forum while all of this played out. I have kept my mouth (keyboard) quite through all of the discussion in this thread, but I have a very strong bias against the new company.

@Sloan gave a day by day discussion of the trial in another thread, and others here with inside knowledge of the players involved have fleshed it out also. I don't think there are many of us here now, who were here then, would buy anything from the new company.

 

[Guppy]

Last thing I hope to say on the matter in this thread: I think it'd be helpful if there was a sticky post detailing (with citations to any public records, etc.) exactly what went on and how it all was resolved. Then, rather than re-hash it every time the company is mentioned, or people say "I don't feel like rehashing it" and leaving those who don't already know to wonder, they could just be referenced to the official thread on the topic, and anything else could be moderated off-topic. (Not that we ever stay on topic here, lol.)

Oh ok, one other thing: There are plenty of companies who did bad things that are still around. Whether people choose to do business with them or not, is their choice. I think the information should be out there for people to make up their minds and decide for themselves. Volkswagon and Porsche built vehicles for the Third Reich. IBM built tabulating machines that tracked records of the victims of the Holocaust. Arms manufacturers build weapons that have killed millions, and usually plenty of consumer products as well. I don't personally care if anyone doesn't want to buy a SB jacket -- that's their call to make, and I have no skin in the game to persuade anyone to change their mind one way or the other. But I think if companies like IBM, Porche, VW, Mitsubishi, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, etc. can stay in business with their history, maybe that gives people some perspective about what they should or shouldn't do with their money. Or maybe it just gives people more companies to boycott forever.

Sorry for Godwin-ing this thread and getting slightly political.

 

[handymike]

There is, or ...used to be:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-trial-narrative.82006/

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, this is it. @Sloan put a lot of work in on this.

Thanks to @handymike for finding it.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yep thanks handymike. That link covers most of the abuse in detail.
I don't think we need to delve into the many other underhanded adventures of companies throughout history. This more recent improper behavior directly effects the outerwear leather jackets that we research and enjoy. This cloud of extreme dishonesty should be something of concern IMO since AL/SB was established on stolen merchandise and is quite content with still making profit from it.

 

[Sloan1874]

Yes, this is it. @Sloan put a lot of work in on this.

Thanks to @handymike for finding it.

It was a mind-melt of a month, though completely engrossing. One of my favourite moments was during an recess in proceedings, the clerk of the court yelled out "I have to ask: who spends £200 on a pair of jeans?". I'm pretty sure 90 per cent of the Lounge around the world could feel their ears burning at that point...

 

[Guppy]

There is, or ...used to be:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-trial-narrative.82006/

Is it pinned? Should be pinned. Then it will be much easier to cite.

 

[Superfluous]

The patterns were taken from Aero's factory by Will for them to be copied over a period of months. They were returned less than 24 hours before the police were due to knock on his door.
The bottom line with SB/AL is that it was set up with the specific intent to replace Aero lock-stock and barrel. Will had run the company into the ground, knew the company was in trouble (because he'd put it there), and was apparently bent on stepping in when Aero went belly up. So, to be clear: SB/AL was built on the foundations of another person's decades of hard work and skill.

Sloan, I vaguely recall the following additional facts which shed light on and add context to the foregoing (please correct me if I am mistaken):

1. Lauder's copying of Aero's jacket patterns occurred shortly before Lauder founded AL/SB with Alexander (the timing, if accurate, speaks volumes);

2. During the first few weeks/months of its existence, AL/SB released an extraordinary number of different jacket models (more than plausible if AL/SB had independently undertaken the time-consuming development of the underlying patterns);

3. AL/SB's initial jacket models were visually nearly identical to Aero's existing jackets; and

4. An independent jacket expert evaluated one or more of AL/SB's initial jacket models and concluded that it was derived from Aero's pattern.

Is that correct?

As before, I do not have personal knowledge of any of the foregoing, I do not know if any of the foregoing is accurate, and I am not stating that any of the foregoing actually occurred.

There is, or ...used to be:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-trial-narrative.82006/

I vaguely recall that there were one or more concurrent, parallel threads that addressed the same, similar and/or related issues. For example, I remember a detailed discussion of AL/SB's initial jacket models.