New Standard & Strange X Simmons Bilt Natural Horsehide Jacket

[Sloan1874]

Sloan, I vaguely recall the following additional facts which shed light on and add context to the foregoing (please correct me if I am mistaken):

1. Lauder's copying of Aero's jacket patterns occurred shortly before Lauder founded AL/SB with Alexander (the timing, if accurate, speaks volumes);

2. During the first few weeks/months of its existence, AL/SB released an extraordinary number of different jacket models (more than plausible if AL/SB had independently undertaken the time-consuming development of the underlying patterns);

3. AL/SB's initial jacket models were visually nearly identical to Aero's existing jackets; and

4. An independent jacket expert evaluated one or more of AL/SB's initial jacket models and concluded that it was derived from Aero's pattern.

1. That's correct. Sandy Alexander had approached Ken at an even earlier date with a proposal to buy the company himself. When Ken turned him down he moved to plan b to set up his own rival firm. It's not clear whether Will was brought into the picture at this point or was involved in SA's approach in the first place, but the patterns were moved out of the factory around this time to Will's house for copying.

2. That's correct: the combination of ready-to-use patterns and having poached a significant number of staff allowed AL/SA to establish a sub-Aero type outfit. Will also approached regular Aero customers on the quiet to offer them AL jackets at a knock-down rate in order get the 'Aero-in-all-but-name' idea into circulation.

3. Yep. Though they struggled to get access to Horween or leathers of similar quality.

4. Yes, a lecturer from Heriot Watt University, which has a highly regarded textiles department, was recorded deconstructing one of AL's jackets - HWM copy, I think -and it was found to be next to identical. I think the only real difference was that the label size. which was basically one-up to actual size ie. a 36 was labelled as a 38, thus giving it a 'tight fit'. I suspect Will thought that this would be enough to get him past any accusations of plagiarism.

 

[Edward]

Long-term, it will doubtless remain inevitable that this issue will come up whenever AL/SB is raised; everyone will have their own opinion on whether that is ideal or no. I would simply ask that whatever their views on the company, members here remain civil with each other.

1) Aero and AL had their day in court. A guilty party went to prison, there was some manner of restitution. It's settled. And in the end, SB was allowed to remain in business.

On point of fact, while the fact of physical theft of the patterns and the copying was established during Lauder's criminal trial, the intellectual property element was not at issue in criminal court; this was a matter of civil law which Aero would have had to pursue separately, and was not ruled on by the court that sent Lauder to prison. Aero had a wealth of evidence on the matter, but clearly chose not to pursue the issue, doubtless having had to make a realistic calculation on whether it was worth it given the limited lifetime of the copyright in the designs, against the (vast) cost of taking a civil case in the UK (even if one is confident of winning, costs can be crippling in the short term, and if your opponent loses but turns out not to be able to pay up, that can be worse). I suspect that it had also become apparent by that point that AL/SB are reaching a different market than Aero.

You know, some good things came out of Lauder's thievery, at least from a customer's perspective. Calder came back to Aero, worked with his team to expand the range of styles Aero offers, added some leather choices, and sped up production, all while improving quality. Hats off to Calder. That's not easy to do.

I would never wish on anyone what the Calders were put through by the whole episode, but it is certainly true that Aero benefited big time from Ken's return. They were coasting, really: the Aero of 2011 was little different to the Aero of 2004; since Ken returned in 2012, they have trebled the number of designs on offer; Ken has also encouraged younger staffers at Aero to get involved in the design game too, which will help drive the company into the future. All other issues aside, there doesn't seem to have been much strategic planning that way in the Lauder years. One has to wonder whether Aero would have retained its position at the top table in this market had it carried on as it was being run in 2011.

I am sorry, but as english is not my first language I cannot follow this level of lawyer talk. But are you basically saying, that I can call you a thief on public forum if your associate has been found guilty of stealing and I have heard from reliable sources that you were part of it or if this reliable source is saying that you are using some stolen intellectual property? In my country this would be illegal. I'd appreciate an answer that I can understand with my basic level english language.

An unfounded allegation of criminal behaviour could give rise to a case in defamation (civil law; the old criminal defamation laws are, thankfully, now a thing of the past), however, English libel law (and that across the UK jurisdictions more generally) also provides sufficient defences between provable fact and opinion that I would doubt anyone on this thread has, thus far, crossed the line. The US law, being significantly more pro-defendant, would be even moreso.

 

[Guppy]

Long-term, it will doubtless remain inevitable that this issue will come up whenever AL/SB is raised; everyone will have their own opinion on whether that is ideal or no. I would simply ask that whatever their views on the company, members here remain civil with each other.



On point of fact, while the fact of physical theft of the patterns and the copying was established during Lauder's criminal trial, the intellectual property element was not at issue in criminal court; this was a matter of civil law which Aero would have had to pursue separately, and was not ruled on by the court that sent Lauder to prison. Aero had a wealth of evidence on the matter, but clearly chose not to pursue the issue, doubtless having had to make a realistic calculation on whether it was worth it given the limited lifetime of the copyright in the designs, against the (vast) cost of taking a civil case in the UK (even if one is confident of winning, costs can be crippling in the short term, and if your opponent loses but turns out not to be able to pay up, that can be worse). I suspect that it had also become apparent by that point that AL/SB are reaching a different market than Aero.

Granted, the courts only find guilty what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt given the evidence and argument presented at trial, and this is invariably a sub-set of the overall criminal history of the accused.

That said, if Aero didn't pursue the matter further, and if SB is allowed to do business today, then if a customer is willing to do business with them, it seems to me a personal choice. I can well understand why someone who is familiar with the Aero/AL case would not wish to do business with them, and I wouldn't try to persuade them otherwise, but nevertheless they are a business, in business, doing business, not criminal activity. So long as the business SB do today is above board, then I suppose it's not unreasonable for bystanding people to mind their own business.

When someone is found guilty by the courts, pays the debt they owe to society, and is released, they have to work at something to make a living, and if they've reformed, the public can give them a second chance. Not every member of the public may be willing to give that second chance, but the society as a whole has to accommodate the reformed offender, somehow -- whether by allowing them to work an honest job, or if they are permanently unemployable, through welfare. I mean, the only other options so far as I can imagine would be: life in prison, exile, or death, and those hardly seem warranted in a case like this.

Edit: I just thought, there IS another option, if they are unable to find work, and aren't granted welfare, and aren't in prison, or exiled, or killed, then the last possible option for them is to return to committing more crimes. That's not what we want, now, is it? I don't mean to conflate the one individual who went to prison with the whole of SB, but the principle is similar. The people who make up that company, if they're not in prison, have need of a means to make a living, and they have to do that somehow, by engaging with business with somebody.

That said, I don't begrudge people's opinion nor their right to judge. For myself, I find it distasteful that they continue to use the Aero designs that were stolen, and would never own one of those. For their unique designs, I'm open to them, and really, I think encouraging them to pursue unique designs that are their exclusive property, is the way to go. Of course that doesn't preclude doing their own take on classics such as the A-2, Buco J-100, and Perfecto-style cross-zips, but they should come up with their own patterns for that, or at least source existing patterns and license them or use them with permission, or whatever. It only seems right.

 

[Superfluous]

Granted, the courts only find guilty what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt given the evidence and argument presented at trial, and this is invariably a sub-set of the overall criminal history of the accused.

That said, if Aero didn't pursue the matter further, and if SB is allowed to do business today, then if a customer is willing to do business with them, it seems to me a personal choice. I can well understand why someone who is familiar with the Aero/AL case would not wish to do business with them, and I wouldn't try to persuade them otherwise, but nevertheless they are a business, in business, doing business, not criminal activity. So long as the business SB do today is above board, then I suppose it's not unreasonable for bystanding people to mind their own business.

When someone is found guilty by the courts, pays the debt they owe to society, and is released, they have to work at something to make a living, and if they've reformed, the public can give them a second chance. Not every member of the public may be willing to give that second chance, but the society as a whole has to accommodate the reformed offender, somehow -- whether by allowing them to work an honest job, or if they are permanently unemployable, through welfare. I mean, the only other options so far as I can imagine woldbe: life in prison, exile, or death, and those hardly seem warranted in a case like this.

That said, I don't begrudge people's opinion nor their right to judge. For myself, I find it distasteful that they continue to use the Aero designs that were stolen, and would never own one of those. For their unique designs, I'm open to them, and really, I think encouraging them to pursue unique designs that are their exclusive property, is the way to go. Of course that doesn't preclude doing their own take on classics such as the A-2, Buco J-100, and Perfecto-style cross-zips, but they should come up with their own patterns for that, or at least source existing patterns and license them or use them with permission, or whatever. It only seems right.

These are very personal, subjective decisions and there are no right or wrong opinions. In this thread, we have seen several different responses to AL/SB’s alleged wrongdoing, including:

• Some people have forgiven and forgotten, and now freely do business with AL/SB without regard for past conduct.
• Some refuse to do business directly with AL/SB, but will purchase their jackets on the secondary market.
• Some will not buy AL/SB jackets allegedly predicated on the stolen Aero patterns, but will buy other AL/SB jackets that clearly do not originate from Aero patterns.

These are all legitimate and reasonable responses.

That said, some – including myself – find AL/SB utterly repugnant, have not forgiven or forgotten, and will not buy any AL/SB jacket from AL/SB, or from anyone else. This perspective is equally legitimate and reasonable.

The success of this forum is our ability to respect diverse and divergent opinions. AL/SB will continue to be a controversial subject for the foreseeable future. Given the nature of the allegations, emotions will continue to run high. However, in the end, no one is right or wrong. Live and let live. Don’t disparage those who disagree, nor seek to quash or preclude their opinions. Instead, lets continue to discuss these important issues with mutual respect.

 

[Guppy]

That said, some – including myself – find AL/SB utterly repugnant, have not forgiven or forgotten, and will not buy any AL/SB jacket from AL/SB, or from anyone else. This perspective is equally legitimate and reasonable.

The success of this forum is our ability to respect diverse and divergent opinions. AL/SB will continue to be a controversial subject for the foreseeable future. Given the nature of the allegations, emotions will continue to run high. However, in the end, no one is right or wrong. Live and let live. Don’t disparage those who disagree, nor seek to quash or preclude their opinions. Instead, lets continue to discuss these important issues with mutual respect.

I 100% respect your stance, and 1000% support your remarks about diverse opinions. Thank you.

 

[red devil]

These are very personal, subjective decisions and there are no right or wrong opinions. In this thread, we have seen several different responses to AL/SB’s alleged wrongdoing, including:

• Some people have forgiven and forgotten, and now freely do business with AL/SB without regard for past conduct.
• Some refuse to do business directly with AL/SB, but will purchase their jackets on the secondary market.
• Some will not buy AL/SB jackets allegedly predicated on the stolen Aero patterns, but will buy other AL/SB jackets that clearly do not originate from Aero patterns.

These are all legitimate and reasonable responses.

That said, some – including myself – find AL/SB utterly repugnant, have not forgiven or forgotten, and will not buy any AL/SB jacket from AL/SB, or from anyone else. This perspective is equally legitimate and reasonable.

The success of this forum is our ability to respect diverse and divergent opinions. AL/SB will continue to be a controversial subject for the foreseeable future. Given the nature of the allegations, emotions will continue to run high. However, in the end, no one is right or wrong. Live and let live. Don’t disparage those who disagree, nor seek to quash or preclude their opinions. Instead, lets continue to discuss these important issues with mutual respect.

The most important part is to keep the conversation to a good level. and I think that we can keep the conversations constructive and interesting in this forum especially on topics such this one. And agreed, don't disparage those that decide to buy from SB and those that decide not to. Respect should always go both ways.

 

[Fanch]

The most important part is to keep the conversation to a good level. and I think that we can keep the conversations constructive and interesting in this forum especially on topics such this one. And agreed, don't disparage those that decide to buy from SB and those that decide not to. Respect should always go both ways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but thus far I don't recall reading of any member disparaging another member from buying any product from any company. In this thread the only disparagement has been directed to one person (Lauder) and to one company (SB). I concur with what others have said here that disrespect of one member toward another is unacceptable. Nothing wrong with spirited discussion and disagreement although we can continue to be cordial with one another.

 

[handymike]

I agree with my fellow Senators.
The threads that were ultimately shut down were due to interactions between members.
As long as the discourse is civil, let's talk!

 

[Seb Lucas]

Yep. The Lounge is a community and communities keep their history alive and look after their members. I think the SB discussion is just a healthy community talking honestly about a subject that matters to it.

 

[red devil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but thus far I don't recall reading of any member disparaging another member from buying any product from any company. In this thread the only disparagement has been directed to one person (Lauder) and to one company (SB). I concur with what others have said here that disrespect of one member toward another is unacceptable. Nothing wrong with spirited discussion and disagreement although we can continue to be cordial with one another.

This thread did deviate massively from the original point which was discussing the collaboration jacket, it did dip at some point as well, but went back up again. It did include some spirited discussion and disagreement as you mention, as well as some humour and funny posts. Quite a complete thread so far. Didn't think you wanted me to review this thread, but here is my lame attempt to do so lol

In any case, to get back on topic, the jacket looks good and I am happy to see natural leathers get more attention. I am certainly biased as I own a tan Thedi, but I am thinking that I really need to add a tan Tenjin to my collection:

And lastly if anyone decides to buy this collaboration jacket, please post it in this forum, nobody will disparage you

 

[jonesy86]

Standard & Strange is a great store with very high quality products, and staffed by very knowledgeable and friendly folks that are proud of their store. This jacket was on the shelf wrapped in plastic, and I was asked to put on gloves to handle it because it marks so easily. The horsehide is quite stiff and substantial, I would guess 4 oz.. I found the 46 to fit a bit loose, and the first thing I noticed is that the sleeves were quite long, which would allow for them rising as they crease.
I commend Neil and company for this collaboration, I think it is a very nice jacket.

 

[Sloan1874]

Yes, if you’re somewhat new poster here it’s also good to know that all opinions are respected here as long as they are the right opinions. But don’t worry if you don’t know what is the right opinion on each matter, just post your own opinion and you will be told by some self appointed thought politruk if it is not what we are allowed to think of things around here.

Feel free to be a contrarian or decide that you don't care what happened before, that's fine, though I doubt it'll go over very well on here. Also don't think that you can post these sorts of comments without being challenged on them. Claiming that it's about having the 'right opinions' on this site is just wrong. It's not about orthodoxy, it's about knowing the truth of what happened and responding appropriately.

 

[sweetfights]

This thread did deviate massively from the original point which was discussing the collaboration jacket, it did dip at some point as well, but went back up again. It did include some spirited discussion and disagreement as you mention, as well as some humour and funny posts. Quite a complete thread so far. Didn't think you wanted me to review this thread, but here is my lame attempt to do so lol

In any case, to get back on topic, the jacket looks good and I am happy to see natural leathers get more attention. I am certainly biased as I own a tan Thedi, but I am thinking that I really need to add a tan Tenjin to my collection:

And lastly if anyone decides to buy this collaboration jacket, please post it in this forum, nobody will disparage you

Tenjin natural leather got me visually hooked !!!

 

[sweetfights]

Standard & Strange is a great store with very high quality products, and staffed by very knowledgeable and friendly folks that are proud of their store. This jacket was on the shelf wrapped in plastic, and I was asked to put on gloves to handle it because it marks so easily. The horsehide is quite stiff and substantial, I would guess 4 oz.. I found the 46 to fit a bit loose, and the first thing I noticed is that the sleeves were quite long, which would allow for them rising as they crease.
I commend Neil and company for this collaboration, I think it is a very nice jacket.
View attachment 148077
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Love this!!!!
Thank you.
Would love to try one on.
And the 'wear gloves' thing is just so proper and reinforces the changing beauty of this leather and is why I need this leather...
Cheers!

 

[red devil]

Standard & Strange is a great store with very high quality products, and staffed by very knowledgeable and friendly folks that are proud of their store. This jacket was on the shelf wrapped in plastic, and I was asked to put on gloves to handle it because it marks so easily. The horsehide is quite stiff and substantial, I would guess 4 oz.. I found the 46 to fit a bit loose, and the first thing I noticed is that the sleeves were quite long, which would allow for them rising as they crease.
I commend Neil and company for this collaboration, I think it is a very nice jacket.
View attachment 148077
View attachment 148076
View attachment 148074
View attachment 148075

Thanks for posting this, really nice to have more info about this jacket!
Also didn't know much about Standard & Strange, but I would definitely want to visit that shop if I end up in the area!

 

[handymike]

@jonesy86 Thanks for getting some shots of this interesting jacket. I agree that S&S is a great store with excellent and knowledgeable staff.
My thoughts on SB aside, I think TFL is an amazing internet resource and I believe threads like this one are a huge part of TFL's value.
The pictures are extremely helpful. This jacket looks large on you in a 46. It seems that it is rather a trim cut as a 44 wouldn't zip up. Am I correct?

 

[jonesy86]

@jonesy86 Thanks for getting some shots of this interesting jacket. I agree that S&S is a great store with excellent and knowledgeable staff.
My thoughts on SB aside, I think TFL is an amazing internet resource and I believe threads like this one are a huge part of TFL's value.
The pictures are extremely helpful. This jacket looks large on you in a 46. It seems that it is rather a trim cut as a 44 wouldn't zip up. Am I correct?

They only had a few left, no 44s. I suppose if I were to buy this I could always give it the Hot Water Treatment. LOL

 

[handymike]

I think the volcanic South Pacific might just give it a special patina. Not to mention all the tropical sunshine.

 

[Superfluous]

The mere fact that Aero elected not to pursue a civil action against AL/SB does not even remotely demonstrate that AL/SB was not culpable. To the contrary, most civil wrongdoing – e.g., misappropriation of trade secrets or intellectual property rights – does not result in civil proceedings. Even when the wrongdoing is undeniable, the costs associated with a civil action are simply too great and burdensome for many aggrieved parties. A meritorious civil action can cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to prosecute depending on the complexity and amount of work. Many companies simply to do not have the financial resources to fund such an effort. Moreover, even when the resources exist, one must also consider whether the likely damages justify the expenditure, and whether the ultimate judgment will be recoverable. Civil proceedings also involve a tremendous investment of time by the aggrieved party. Managers must allocate huge amounts of time to the proceedings, which prevents them from attending to the essential business operations. Lastly, there is an incomprehensible emotional burden associated with civil litigation that taxes even the most rational and level-headed business people.

The bottom line is that aggrieved / injured companies frequently forego legitimate and provable claims for a variety of reasons. I know that Ken strongly believed that he could prove his claims against AL/SB, but the various factors addressed above were too daunting and burdensome. AL/SB should consider itself fortunate that it was never required to defend itself in Court and address the compelling evidence of its wrongdoing. Instead, AL/SB sidestepped the conviction of its founder, Will Lauder, changed the company’s name, and waited for memories to fade.

 

[El Marro]

They only had a few left, no 44s. I suppose if I were to buy this I could always give it the Hot Water Treatment. LOL

If you are seriously thinking about buying I would hold out for a 44 in this one if I were you. It’s a good looking jacket, but the 46 doesn’t fit you nearly as well as any of the other jackets I’ve seen you post on these pages.