New Goodwear Prices

[Jeff M]

..
That's where I was going. It seems reasonable to me - as long as they agree it upfront - that he be required to return the deposit (assuming it is significant, but I doubt a fiver would cut it or something with such a high end price; it would also need to be high enough to discourage folks who can't be relied on to have the money when the time comes...), but that he keep the interest (or a reasonable portion thereof) he received from putting it in a high interest account in order to cover his admin time....

In the case of the luthier, nothing "required" about it. Not only is there no return of the interest...there is no return of the deposit.
The customer agrees to this at the time they place the order.
If they don't agree, they don't order.

Not so sure how such a strategy would work out in the world of A2 reproduction jackets, but if John's waiting list stretched out to 8 years with used jackets selling for more than what a customer is paying for a new jacket at the prices agreed upon years earlier, I could see it working.
This policy certainly has not damaged the market for this luthiers guitars.

 

[Sloan1874]

I do find this approach rather odd. Quality of product aside, look at it this way: some of the biggest bands of last 50/60 years could have risen to fame, released a solid body of work, then split in acrimony, in the time it takes to get one of this guys guitar's. I'm trying to work out who this guys market is, other than The Rolling Stones. Certainly makes the likes of Aces High and GW look like the last word in prompt delivery!

 

[majormajor]

Whoah, another thread veering way off topic.

There can be no doubt whatsover that John Chapman makes exceedingly good A2 jackets, and his attention to detail is without equal.

And I guess the sensible thing, once your waiting list reaches a certain length, is to up your prices.

And would you want to deal with some of the pernickety stitch counters that he has to? I reckon he deserves every penny.

But the comparison with the Guitar market is stretching it a bit. The jacket market has a LONG way to go before it reaches the lunacy prevalent in that market, where the prices left mere usury behind years ago, and are now simply a means of preying on foolish people with money to burn.

It is, for example, possible to buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for around $700. On the other hand, you could buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for $20,000. And if you want a real "collectable" version, then start looking for a few hundred grand....

Ever since the late 60's, the music equipment business has been dogged by vendors prepared to talk telephone number pricing, and bands and record companies daft enough to pay the price.
An old acquaintance of mine, whilst working as a roadie for Led Zeppelin in 1969, noticed a gap in the market for a certain piece of equipment. Despite no knowledge of how to operate or build said piece, he formed an outsourcing company and promptly made millions.

And it is interesting to note that Kim Walker, the maker quoted earlier in this thread, as well as asking for silly deposits, also says on his site "My goal as a professional guitar maker is to live well".

The only similarity between guitars and A2 jackets is the fact that these already ludicrous prices are being driven up even further by pernickety collectors, who all claim an encyclopedic knowledge of guitars and to know Tom Murphy (ex-head of Gibson Custom Shop) on a personal basis.

And one major point of difference is that currently, no moderators of any of the big Guitar forum sites has used the knowledge and connections gleaned therein to help found a company making top end guitars.

As I said at the start, John Chapman makes brilliant jackets, but the sycophancy of VLJ members towards one of their moderators has certainly not been a negative in his rise to his current high regard.

God forebid he ever studies the marketing policies of the music business:eeek:

 

[Jeff M]

Whaoh, another thread veering way off topic.

There can be no doubt whatsover that John Chapman makes exceedingly good A2 jackets, and his attention to detail is without equal.

And I guess the sensible thing, once your waiting list reaches a certain length, is to up your prices.

And would you want to deal with some of the pernickety stitch counters that he has to? I reckon he deserves every penny.

But the comparison with the Guitar market is stretching it a bit. The jacket market has a LONG way to go before it reaches the lunacy prevalent in that market, where the prices left mere usury behind years ago, and are now simply a means of preying on foolish people with money to burn.

It is, for example, possible to buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for around $700. On the other hand, you could buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for $20,000. And if you want a real "collectable" version, then start looking for a few hundred grand....

Ever since the late 60's, the music equipment business has been dogged by vendors prepared to talk telephone number pricing, and bands and record companies daft enough to pay the price.
An old acquaintance of mine, whilst working as a roadie for Led Zeppelin in 1969, noticed a gap in the market for a certain piece of equipment. Despite no knowledge of how to operate or build said piece, he formed an outsourcing company and promptly made millions.

And it is interesting to note that Kim Walker, the maker quoted earlier in this thread, as well as asking for silly deposits, also says on his site "My goal as a professional guitar maker is to live well".

The only similarity between guitars and A2 jackets is the fact that these already ludicrous prices are being driven up even further by pernickety collectors, who all claim an encyclopedic knowledge of guitars and to know Tom Murphy (ex-head of Gibson Custom Shop) on a personal basis.

And one major point of difference is that currently, no moderators of any of the big Guitar forum sites has used the knowledge and connections gleaned therein to help found a company making top end guitars.

As I said at the start, John Chapman makes brilliant jackets, but the sycophancy of VLJ members towards one of their moderators has certainly not been a negative in his rise to his current high regard.

God forebid he ever studies the marketing policies of the music business:eeek:

I didn't think I'd have to state this, but the analogy to the world of high end luthery is just that. An analogy not meant to be "perfect".
Costly product. Solo maker. "Collectors" and "aficionados" counted among the customers. High quality product with a dedicated following. Lengthy waiting lists.

The power of supply and demand will tell.
If John has enough "sycophants" to give him enough business to keep him happy, more power to him.
If not, his prices will come back.

 

[Dr H]

' As I said at the start, John Chapman makes brilliant jackets, but the sycophancy of VLJ members towards one of their moderators has certainly not been a negative in his rise to his current high regard.'

...and substitute Aero for GW...

What's seen as respect on one forum is 'sycophancy' on another and vice versa it seems...

 

[Edward]

In the case of the luthier, nothing "required" about it. Not only is there no return of the interest...there is no return of the deposit.
The customer agrees to this at the time they place the order.
If they don't agree, they don't order.

Yeah, saw your post after I made mine. Interesting approach.

Not so sure how such a strategy would work out in the world of A2 reproduction jackets, but if John's waiting list stretched out to 8 years with used jackets selling for more than what a customer is paying for a new jacket at the prices agreed upon years earlier, I could see it working.
This policy certainly has not damaged the market for this luthiers guitars.

I'm sure I remember reading Morgan cars had an eight year waiting list at one point too.

I do find this approach rather odd. Quality of product aside, look at it this way: some of the biggest bands of last 50/60 years could have risen to fame, released a solid body of work, then split in acrimony, in the time it takes to get one of this guys guitar's. I'm trying to work out who this guys market is, other than The Rolling Stones. Certainly makes the likes of Aces High and GW look like the last word in prompt delivery!

heh...

It is, for example, possible to buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for around $700. On the other hand, you could buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for $20,000. And if you want a real "collectable" version, then start looking for a few hundred grand....

Funny, innit? You'd have to pay me to take most any Les Paul off your hands (a TV Yellow single-cut Junior aside, but I'm still meh about their glued in necks. Rather a bolt any day...) as an instrument. I wouldn't mind finding a 59 Standard in the closet, though. I'd be right on the phone to Bonhams then... Gibby get cursed a lot for being money grubber under Henry, but it's undeniable he increased LP sales exponentially, by simply doubling the price!

 

[majormajor]

Funny, innit? You'd have to pay me to take most any Les Paul off your hands (a TV Yellow single-cut Junior aside, but I'm still meh about their glued in necks. Rather a bolt any day...) as an instrument. I wouldn't mind finding a 59 Standard in the closet, though. I'd be right on the phone to Bonhams then... Gibby get cursed a lot for being money grubber under Henry, but it's undeniable he increased LP sales exponentially, by simply doubling the price!

Hi Edward

I have a few Gibsons (including an old single-cut junior) and a couple of Fenders.

In fact, my very first "real" electric should have been a Fender Tele, but they doubled the price just before I went to the shop (and that was in 1965, so nothing new!!).

So I bought an old Gibson instead! And once you've played those big fat old 50's Gibson necks, it spoils you, I guess!

If you have big hands, I can empathise with skinny necks like Fender. But my hands are relatively small, and old Gibsons are a godsend.

As they say, horses for courses

 

[Jeff M]

' ...
...and substitute Aero for GW...

What's seen as respect on one forum is 'sycophancy' on another and vice versa it seems...

Yeah. Had the same thoughts myself.

 

[Sloan1874]

Now, now... This is an interesting. Having ploughed through some of the FL's past threads, going back to mid-2000s, people were kvetching about prices which would be seen as a stone-cold bargain nowadays. Is it the case that as the market 'matures' - I mean in the sense that it develops a broad customer base and an international reach with more people coming into it - can there be an absolute limit to what people will pay for a repro jacket? If Belstaff can now charge £1,200 and upwards for its papery efforts, it doesn't bode well for the rest of it.

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

Be it jackets, guitars, or any number of other items that people tend to obsess over, I chalk a lot of these trends up to the internet. Online forums such as this one allows like-minded individuals to develop a skewed sense of normal behavior. To the average person, a jacket running in the four figure range or an acoustic guitar running in the five figure range is just plain insane. Now consider that some people have not just one expensive jacket or one expensive guitar but multiples, sometimes many more. To an average person on the street that's simply nuts, but in the security of an online forum, it doesn't seem so abnormal. This applies to countless other objects or interests and it's a big part of why people seek out others who feel and act the same way. Sure, collectors have always existed, but online forums have a way of way taking people who start with a mere interest in something and develops that interest into a full blown obsession. The more we see others exhibiting this behavior, the more logical it all seems. Soon, our sense of normalcy is highly skewed due to this group dynamic. In the end, many end up so fixated on acquiring items that they're interested in, they sometimes loose track of what interested them in the first place. For example, someone fixating on the individual high-end stereo components to the point where that person doesn't ever just sit back and enjoy listening to music any more, or becoming so obsessed with the specific woods used in the construction of an acoustic guitar that the person spends more time chatting about it on the internet than they actually spend playing the thing. It's always been a crazy world, the internet has simply gotten everyone together and has enabled them to influence one another in ways that were not imaginable a few decades ago. This definitely has an impact in smaller niche markets where products made by highly skilled craftspeople have an otherwise limited market. All of a sudden, the world has learned about their product and is knocking at their door.

I'm not knocking anyone for their interests or passions and feel that everyone is entitled to spend their money however they see fit. I'm simply making an observation of how I see the internet playing a role in all of this. At times, it's eerily fascinating to me. The initial search for knowledge regarding quality leather jackets is what lead me to TFL in the first place. I've learned a lot here and for that I'm grateful as I ended up finding exactly what I was looking for in a jacket. I can say though that If I even begin to consider purchasing a third expensive jacket then I'll know it's time to take a break from this place. I've already purchased one more jacket than I originally planned on. That doesn't strike me quite as odd as it would have before I found this place.

 

[Edward]

I have a few Gibsons (including an old single-cut junior) and a couple of Fenders.

In fact, my very first "real" electric should have been a Fender Tele, but they doubled the price just before I went to the shop (and that was in 1965, so nothing new!!).

So I bought an old Gibson instead! And once you've played those big fat old 50's Gibson necks, it spoils you, I guess!

If you have big hands, I can empathise with skinny necks like Fender. But my hands are relatively small, and old Gibsons are a godsend.

As they say, horses for courses

I think I'm fairly average in the hand. I'm a sucker for Fender's vintage spec - the 42mm at the nut width feels much better to me than the 43. That and I like a reasonably deep neck. My Tele is a 2006 Japanese-built Fender 71 reissue. Gorgeous beast. Still got my old Strat (US Std) I bought new in 1994. The ones I'm really lusting after these days are the Squier Classic Vibe range, actually.... Got to sell off a few other guitars first, though. I do like a nice soft V profile neck, but oh, my would I like to check out one of those rare Fifties hard vs...

' As I said at the start, John Chapman makes brilliant jackets, but the sycophancy of VLJ members towards one of their moderators has certainly not been a negative in his rise to his current high regard.'

...and substitute Aero for GW...

What's seen as respect on one forum is 'sycophancy' on another and vice versa it seems...

Quite! Sycophancy isn't a word I'd use in either case, really. IMO, both those companies have worked hard to attract a loyal market. Sometimes people are fans because they just genuinely like the stuff.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Be it jackets, guitars, or any number of other items that people tend to obsess over, I chalk a lot of these trends up to the internet. Online forums such as this one allows like-minded individuals to develop a skewed sense of normal behavior. To the average person, a jacket running in the four figure range or an acoustic guitar running in the five figure range is just plain insane. Now consider that some people have not just one expensive jacket or one expensive guitar but multiples, sometimes many more. To an average person on the street that's simply nuts, but in the security of an online forum, it doesn't seem so abnormal. This applies to countless other objects or interests and it's a big part of why people seek out others who feel and act the same way. Sure, collectors have always existed, but online forums have a way of way taking people who start with a mere interest in something and develops that interest into a full blown obsession. The more we see others exhibiting this behavior, the more logical it all seems. Soon, our sense of normalcy is highly skewed due to this group dynamic. In the end, many end up so fixated on acquiring items that they're interested in, they sometimes loose track of what interested them in the first place.

Oh, Lord! Expensive guitars and expensive jackets...if you had just said something about paying too much for moth-eaten Stetson hats, I would be absolutely sure you were writing about me.

AF

 

[Sloan1874]

It's not called The Hat Club in certain quarters for no good reason, you know...

 

[Jeff M]

Oh, Lord! Expensive guitars and expensive jackets...if you had just said something about paying too much for moth-eaten Stetson hats, I would be absolutely sure you were writing about me.

AF

Nope. Not a Stetson collector. Don't get me started on something new.

 

[EmergencyIan]

I'm glad John made my Goodwear A-2 (Bronco) when he did, a couple of years ago. Today, I might still be able to purchase one, but it would be much more of a sacrifice. It also seems as though the wait is even longer, at this point (even with an assistant).

- Ian

 

[Worf]

All I can say is I'm glad he does't make em in MY size.

Worf

 

[Smithy]

Beautifully made jackets but in reality I'd imagine you'd have to be a true A-2 trainspotter to pull the plug on one now. If you weren't, most couldn't justify the price and year + wait time.

As others have stated he will have done this to sort the wheat from the chaff so he is making jackets for the diehard, pernickety, A-2 cognoscenti.

I won't be ordering one but then I don't want a stitch perfect A-2. But there are those who do and I'm sure they'll stump up the cash and put up with the wait time.

 

[paulgt3]

John is only concerned about keeping his standards high. He tried "getting help" but it was taking longer to train the help to get up to his standards than it was worth. His first idea was to get help and not raise prices, but given the customer list is so long he decided to press on. One thing he is really proud of is that his standard has reached a very high level now and he is extremely happy with the product. And materials have risen also. But he is SO driven to get the product to be the best that it can be that getting help is just not a good option for him right now. And given his location its not like there are expert leather tailors all over the northwest, that hampered that idea also. So we are at were we are at with Goodwear. Its the best reproduction jacket on the planet. Better some say than the originals. But what drives him to make the very best is no where near cooling down so he is going to press on. And like someone else said his products are still less expensive than a Ralph Loren example where you get to pay $400 for Jacket and $2100 for the name.

 

[Peter Mackin]

Lets get this straight.the A2 was churned out 70odd years ago.in 1.000s.. by all accounts not particularly skilled workers.who im sure didnt spend days making the one jacket..Now we are going nuts over these things....im sure if john chapman was working in a factory during the war.he woulda been making 40 jackets in the time its taking him to make one.were the jacket makers of 70 years ago all as skilled as mr chapman? Is that what we are to believe..i love my A2s but they are just jackets at the end of the day...

 

[Sir Jacket]

Glad I put my deposit down for the A-1 some time ago.

SJ