New Goodwear Prices

[Fletch]

Never mind easy - I'm arguing it's not even possible.

 

[Foster]

Well, I do take pride in whatever work I do, whatever things I do craft with hand and/or machine. But variety is often a welcome thing, too much of the same product day after day, year after year, can potentially wear down the enjoyment for those of us who like to take on new and different challenges.
(On a personal note, it also doesn't help my perspective at this moment with my most recent batch or replicas being finished, the individuals who were excited about getting these have gone completely silent and aren't sending the payment as agreed upon completion. It's a demotivator unique to my replica making, as in general I do not bill for these until they are complete.)

 

[Feraud]

Agreed Fletch, it is probably not possible at all.

Foster, can I ask what types of repliacs you make?

 

[Foster]

Agreed Fletch, it is probably not possible at all.

Foster, can I ask what types of repliacs you make?

Replicas of WWII wool hats used by the British Army.

 

[Edward]

In other news, the resale value of existing Goodwear jackets probably just increased as well!

For sure. I've been watching the same thing happen on the used Aero market as they have had to increase prices over the past few years.

Wow
I think you are right.
I am sure they will always have buyers but at some point you price the majority of folks out contention. I am one of them (priced out that is)

It actually seems to me to make a lot of sense, though. John wants to stay as a one-man operation, and has more custom than he can deal with on that basis. A price rise will thin out the herd. The nature of his business - as opposed, to, say, a firm with a much larger staff such as Aero, means that he is dealing in smaller quantities, so less economy of scale and all the other associated characteristics. Then there's also the concept of perceived market value. Back when Gibson's management last changed, they found the Les Paul wasn't selling so well. The first thing they did was almost double the price.... and sales shot up. Far from the only industry that happens in. Sometimes (and I say this with all due respect for John's jackets, as they are certainly the most accurate repros on the market at present) something becomes worth more in the eyes of the market because it costs more.

I second that.
I had a GW in target... will be without me... even I am sure the increase is certainly a reflect of leather price increase... (same applies for BK new HH leather models).

Materials I'm sure come into it, but to be honest I think a lot of it has to be about the labour. I could be wrong, but I'd have thought one GW requires more man-hours than some of the competition, and with only one operative...

Still I think we all agree that GW is the n°1 about quality/accuracy and I would definitely prefer to pay that price for a GW than paying same or more for a Ralph Lauren (ot other fashion brand) non accurate fashion flight jacket!

That's where perceived value comes in, yeah. To some folks an alternative, much cheaper, which is just as good quality as an item of clothing, might be much preferable, but there will be those who prize the level of accuracy as a reproduction of a historical item that John builds them with. To some folks that will be worth the pricetag; others might not value that, but do value the brand - whether RRL or whoever - to that extent. Money no object, I'd always go John over a "fashion jacket" of equivalent quality, of course....

just too high for me. [huh]

Yes, they went out of my budget quite some time ago. That said, it's like Henry Poole on Saville Row. I'll probably never be able to afford to buy my suits there, but I feel better for knowing that level of craftsmanship exists, if that makes any sense?

All he's doing is keeping standards. And narrowing his market, and inviting competition.

Repros could be copied closely. It's just that there usually isn't enough incentive to do it. A 40% price hike could be someone else's incentive.

Could be, though then they'd have to be able to convince the market they were as good. Folks who are unshakeable convinced that Aero A2s, for example, are crap (there are some of them about!) will take a lot of convincing to buy one of those instead. Not picking on aero - just an example. Then there's the question of how big the market is, I suppose. There's one market for "leather bomber jackets". A subset of that market want a "good" A2 - Aero, BK, ELC, whatever. A smaller subset of that are the target market for John's bespoke work. It's a very niche market - not by any means a criticism - so I suppose it depends how big that is and whether a new entrant perceives it as financially more viable than a different approach.

I do genuinely find these issues really interesting.

If I were to charge that much, I'd broaden out my selection because he has a very narrow market to begin with. Add some civilian styles. But I've said that to him for a while.

Well, he does have a couple of (really nice) civilian models. Doesn't seem though that Goodwear is looking for increased market share. John's also carved out and built his reputation based on the quality of his A2 jackets. It'd be a lot of work to start that up for the civilian stuff too, and again increase the workload...

Speaking as one who has made replicas of other items (not jackets), I suspect a similar dynamic may be at play here. I began making replicas out of personal interest and positive customer enthusiasm. Over time, the income from making these replicas didn't offset for the time involved and my personal motivation decreased (how many of one style item can one make before becoming somewhat bored with it?). That combined with increased raw material expenses naturally resulted in price increases. Others entered the same niche market, but seem to have dropped out after a few years. It is different with leather jackets, entirely different clientele, and more competition already. Add in the messy business of the subjectivity of desired fit and appearance, and there becomes a lot of potential headache in making something!

Quite!

I've encountered the handmade mentality as just the opposite. If you work with your hands and are good at it, that means you love the product or craft more than automated machines or humans cutting and pasting on an assembly line.

Again this is not getting at anyone, but.... I do find a wry amusement in the way the A2 has evolved from being a basic jacket that was churned out by the thousand by US Army contractors, mass producing to fill a need to a very niche product with a high unit cost and so much more emphasis on the detailing. Of course, reproducing something is always a harder thing to do than making it originally: any A2, any contract, of the originals is a real A2 and no-one questions the number of stitches, shape of the pocket flap etc (other than to identify it as belonging to a particular contract, of course - I'm thinking more here in terms of it being an "authentic" A2). A Repro, on the other hand.... much trickier.

 

[bretron]

Still cheaper than a Himel Bros jacket, tho still made by the artist himself.

I think John is just leveling his business out to price himself according to the demand.

That said, I wish I'da put a deposit down on two not one :lol:

(Oh and I still want a DH jacket- Heron in seal- whether or not they're expensive and made by someone else!!)

 

[kyboots]

It is a very high price;makes one certainly reconsider a purchase. You do reach a limit on reasonability as that amount of money can do a lot of other good things in this world!

 

[thor]

Was thinking about a GW M-422....until I saw the new price of $1899.00!

WAY out of my price range. I'll just buy an original in good condition for half that price. The search/wait time will probably be shorter

 

[handymike]

I gues this Heron Jacket on eBay last week was a steal...Even at the ending price.

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=181064897831&index=7&nav=WATCHING&nid=37886514961

 

[Atticus Finch]

There is a concept in economics called the "price elasticity of demand". It describes the functional relationship of a product's quantity demanded to incremental price increases for that product. If the demand for a product is very elastic, then even small price increases reduce the quantity demanded greatly enough to decrease the product's revenue. Very non-elastic demand means that even large price increases don't greatly affect quantity demanded and, thus, price increases actually increase revenue…sometimes substantially.

Typically, products that exist in competitive markets and which vie for the consumer's dollars among many good alternatives, have elastic demands. Unique, essential products, without good alternatives often have non-elastic demands.

Whether he's right or not is yet to be seen, but I'll bet John is banking on his product having a very non-elastic demand.

AF

 

[Jeff M]

John has priced himself according to what what he thinks the market will bear and how hard he wants to work.
My impression is the market will bear the price increase and he is working his bu*t off as it is.

My other hobby is acoustic guitars.
My favorite builder, last I checked, has an 8 year waiting list and is charging a base price of $12,000.00 for a flat top guitar.
His policy is that your deposit saves you a place in his build que. 8 years from now, when your slot comes up, he contacts you, tells you what he is charging for his guitars at THAT point in time, and asks if you want to go ahead with the build.
He came up with this pricing system because his wait time was being outstripped by the market for his "used" guitars. He would send out a new guitar only to see it selling on eBay a week later for more than what he had just received for it from the original customer.

Now...is a $12,000.00 + guitar "worth more" than a $700.00 guitar made in China?
Moot point.
There is obviously a market for those $12,000.00 guitars, and the luthier makes guitars for a living. Raising his prices over the years and going with his current pricing policy don't seem to have hurt his business.

I'd do the same were I as talented as these folks.

 

[Edward]

John has priced himself according to what what he thinks the market will bear and how hard he wants to work.
My impression is the market will bear the price increase and he is working his bu*t off as it is.

My other hobby is acoustic guitars.
My favorite builder, last I checked, has an 8 year waiting list and is charging a base price of $12,000.00 for a flat top guitar.
His policy is that your deposit saves you a place in his build que. 8 years from now, when your slot comes up, he contacts you, tells you what he is charging for his guitars at THAT point in time, and asks if you want to go ahead with the build.
He came up with this pricing system because his wait time was being outstripped by the market for his "used" guitars. He would send out a new guitar only to see it selling on eBay a week later for more than what he had just received for it from the original customer.

Now...is a $12,000.00 + guitar "worth more" than a $700.00 guitar made in China?
Moot point.
There is obviously a market for those $12,000.00 guitars, and the luthier makes guitars for a living. Raising his prices over the years and going with his current pricing policy don't seem to have hurt his business.

I'd do the same were I as talented as these folks.

Interesting model. Does he return the deposit if they say no?

 

[Dr H]

Interesting model. Does he return the deposit if they say no?

...and the interest?

 

[Feraud]

Replicas of WWII wool hats used by the British Army.

Very interesting!

Again this is not getting at anyone, but.... I do find a wry amusement in the way the A2 has evolved from being a basic jacket that was churned out by the thousand by US Army contractors, mass producing to fill a need to a very niche product with a high unit cost and so much more emphasis on the detailing. Of course, reproducing something is always a harder thing to do than making it originally: any A2, any contract, of the originals is a real A2 and no-one questions the number of stitches, shape of the pocket flap etc (other than to identify it as belonging to a particular contract, of course - I'm thinking more here in terms of it being an "authentic" A2). A Repro, on the other hand.... much trickier.

There is an amusing factor in taking objects out of context and trying to recreate them in another! As we have seen craftsmen like John at Goodwear do an admirable job while other companies churn out mall quality A2s. The market will support both types.
I have a lot of respect for individuals who focus on a specific item and recreate it.

 

[Jeff M]

Interesting model. Does he return the deposit if they say no?

"Payment terms and purchase prices: A $500, non-refundable and non-transferable deposit is due to confirm your order. This deposit secures your position on the wait list, without a locked in price. A price is locked prior to starting your guitar and 30% of that price is due before I commence building your guitar. The remainder of the price is due before shipping."

 

[Edward]

There is an amusing factor in taking objects out of context and trying to recreate them in another! As we have seen craftsmen like John at Goodwear do an admirable job while other companies churn out mall quality A2s. The market will support both types.

As well as all points in between! I love that it's not either a Goodwear or a mall jacket, but that there are a whole lot of options at many different price bands.

I have a lot of respect for individuals who focus on a specific item and recreate it.

Absolutely. It's a much harder task than the original production, IMO.

...and the interest?

That's where I was going. It seems reasonable to me - as long as they agree it upfront - that he be required to return the deposit (assuming it is significant, but I doubt a fiver would cut it or something with such a high end price; it would also need to be high enough to discourage folks who can't be relied on to have the money when the time comes...), but that he keep the interest (or a reasonable portion thereof) he received from putting it in a high interest account in order to cover his admin time....

 

[Sloan1874]

I love the optimism of saying "I will definitely be around and capable in eight years time to pick up my guitar." I wonder if it encourages risk-averse behaviour?

 

[thor]

"Payment terms and purchase prices: A $500, non-refundable and non-transferable deposit is due to confirm your order. This deposit secures your position on the wait list, without a locked in price. A price is locked prior to starting your guitar and 30% of that price is due before I commence building your guitar. The remainder of the price is due before shipping."

Sounds a bit Machiavellian but it would discourage "tire-kickers".

 

[bretron]

I gues this Heron Jacket on eBay last week was a steal...Even at the ending price.

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=181064897831&index=7&nav=WATCHING&nid=37886514961

You have no idea how tempted I was by that... If it was in brown, button front and a size 42, it'd be mine!

 

[Edward]

Ah, we cross-posted!

"Payment terms and purchase prices: A $500, non-refundable and non-transferable deposit is due to confirm your order. This deposit secures your position on the wait list, without a locked in price. A price is locked prior to starting your guitar and 30% of that price is due before I commence building your guitar. The remainder of the price is due before shipping."

OUCH! That's a lot of cash.... but then it keeps away the tire-kickers, as Thor says. And it's all relative.... I suppose if I had twelve gees to drop on a guitar, I'd not consider five hundred to be that much. Oh, to live in that world!