New Bill Kelso model

[Sloan1874]

Again, my last comment. I do not disagree with any of the these comments, however has it not been the known MO of BK for quite sometime? I suppose there is merit in keeping new members appraised to the antics of BK. I was told long ago 'do not encourage the ba$tards'.

Pak, Andy sent me a string of unsolicited harassing emails for no good reason - really, his accusations were so baseless that you might even believe that he hadn't read the thread properly. I've never had a maker do this to me before, and I hope it doesn't happen again. If you think, 'oh, just ignore them', will make f***wits like BK go away or change their behaviour, you're sadly wrong - this kind thing has happened before, though their behaviour seems to have become much more aggressive and unhinged. Personally, I've had enough, and I've warned Andy as such.

 

[ProteinNerd]

BK's antics and behaviour speaks volumes about their character. The Facebook page disparaging fit pics from here....really? Are these guys 13 yrs old?

Personally, I'd rather support decent people/companies than some childish outfit that slags off other companies and customers.

While I definitely had the intention of eventually picking up a BK jacket at some point (I even had samples delivered) there is no way I would support them now.

 

[Sloan1874]

^^Word!^^

 

[Benny Holiday]

Superman's cape is made from BK's Victory hide (Superman attributes his powers to his Victory cape). Moreover, Donald Trump's toupee is also made from Victory hide.

I made the mistake of reading this thread while drinking my morning tea, and nearly ended up spurting it out all over my keyboard trying not to laugh! You're killing me Supe! hahahaha

I've probably said this somewhere before around here, but it staggers the mind to try to comprehend the attitude and actions of company reps like this given the state of the current world economy - on top of that, this is such a niche market. You would think that all manufacturers would be doing their utmost to provide customer satisfaction, not harass and denigrate people interested in the type of wares they sell. Anyway, as the old saying goes, the cream rises to the top, and we know who the right guys are.

I keep cursing that Aussie dollar every time I see a Norshor jacket!

 

[AdeeC]

Haven't have much to do with BK but I have two jackets made by Mark Fisher(NORSHOR). His jackets are at the top of the premier league of jackets and he is a perfect gentleman to communicate with. I particularly like his NS2 jacket.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

This is just idiotic. Superfluous is possibly the most genuine, helpful, and cool people I've met on any forum so for BK to stoop so low on him in particular really pisses me off.
At this point, there is really no defense for them and I do honestly believe that nobody should ever buy a jacket for them again.

Are his quoted prices in Canadian or US? If they are Canadian than they are substantially less, if they are US, still lower than Victory.

They are in US dollars so they are a lot, but IMO they are justified. The grizzly jacket takes an absolutely insane amount of man hours, nearly twice as much as any of his other jackets, so it's not bad at all relatively. Now it's very expensive and I'm only justifying it because I'm in the process of purchasing one

 

[xmr]

OMG...I'm so happy I didn't order a BK. I choose not to buy because their constant bashing of other companies and praising their own leather/jackets became extremely annoying. I bought an Aerial Star instead - I rather deal with nice People (even if I have to pass on the abolute amazing best leather in the world lol).

But this behaviour is excelling everything I noticed before. Stealing fit pics, harrassing other members and stealing designs. Well, my life is too short to deal with idiots and I hope others think alike.

 

[thor]

I did notice that Headwind Leather have now added a Grizzly and a Hercules Moto jacket to their inventory of available leather jackets. I believe Steve S (a member here and on VLJ) is producing these civilian style jackets for Headwind and he's an amazing artisan of leather jacket creation. If I ever wanted a Grizzly I'd definitely get one from Headwind; quality workmanship at a very reasonable price.

 

[Otter]

You know the funny thing about those "secret" Facebook groups ? There is always a mole somewhere, copying and pasting the juicy bits.

 

[jacketjunkie]

Aren't unprotected images posted on the 'net free game?

No. They are not. The WWW is no legal blackhole. In Germany, BK would have violated numerous laws and could be pressed charges against. I'm no expert on International Private Law or the jurisdiction of Greece or the US, but I'm fairly certain there's a minimum consens in both their laws and jurisdictions which would allow Supe to successfully sue BK if he felt it was worth the effort and time.

 

[Otter]

Very true. There has just been a case here in Scotland where a photographer found people using his aerial shots on their websites. He won thousands in damages.

Edit: and don't forget that Mr Abomination is a US Attorney.

 

[Justhandguns]

No. They are not. The WWW is no legal blackhole. In Germany, BK would have violated numerous laws and could be pressed charges against. I'm no expert on International Private Law or the jurisdiction of Greece or the US, but I'm fairly certain there's a minimum consens in both their laws and jurisdictions which would allow Supe to successfully sue BK if he felt it was worth the effort and time.

Greece (and UK) are part of the EU, for now. That would probably make things easier?

 

[Otter]

He could just put in a takedown notice to Facebook then the them up in expensive US litigation for the next couple of years.

 

[xmr]

I did notice that Headwind Leather have now added a Grizzly and a Hercules Moto jacket to their inventory of available leather jackets. I believe Steve S (a member here and on VLJ) is producing these civilian style jackets for Headwind and he's an amazing artisan of leather jacket creation. If I ever wanted a Grizzly I'd definitely get one from Headwind; quality workmanship at a very reasonable price.

I have an A1 from Headwind on order, should be finished any day now

Very true. There has just been a case here in Scotland where a photographer found people using his aerial shots on their websites. He won thousands in damages..

Same here in Germany. Stealing pictures can get you definately in trouble. But apart from the legal standpoint - stealing personal pictures is impertinent.

 

[Otter]

Piccies of that A1 when it gets there please, seen a few of their jackets and I am quite tempted.

 

[xmr]

Sure thing!

 

[Edward]

Bet the reply is that it is a common design back in the days and many companies have copied it, Westride has, Toys McCoy has, Norshor has, Levi's has, Real McCoy's has and now...

Well, that's the thing. The particular jacket referred to in this thread is one that has indeed been done by many companies over the years. It's notoriously hard to copyright clothing. You can copyright patterns for a short while, though - 20 years or so. So any legal protection in these historical jacket designs is long gone. Even Schott or Lewis, still-going concerns, can't stop anyone else from making jackets that look like theirs. BK wouldn't be the first company to feel ticked off if they put a lot of time into getting a new design on the market and popularising it only to find others doing the same or a similar model - I'm sure it's happened to everyone in the business at some time or another. In this case, it seems that the model they're annoyed about someone else doing is one that others were also doing before they did, which seems a bit odd, unless they think someone else has done something that they consider to be underhand. I'd be surprised if someone has had the opportunity to pilfer their patterns (which BK could legally protect); perhaps they suspect someone has acquired one of their jackets, taken it apart, and then made their own patterns and copied from there (which, I believe, is perfectly legal - back to the design itself not being protectable).

Of course, what's of value in this niche is the business reputation for good quality, good value, and good customer service. I sometimes wonder if those who react with anger to tings like this wouldn't be best off focussing elsewhere on how they can build their business up - or, indeed, if the sector they're trying to get into isn't already somewhat overcrowded. Let's face it - we're a niche audience, and thereis only so much space in the market for so many businesses to be viable. [huh]

Their model is feature in the mysterious Block Bilt site.... http://www.block-bilt.com/site/product.php?id=biker
how coincidence! ;-)

I wodner is that the current source of anger: is this a new player who Andy feels has copied some of his range?

Aero's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/7Z-zwhLh--/

Nice photo - when does that date to? I know Aero recently revived this model from a pattern they did twenty odd years ago.

My last comment, as this is a bit of a hijack. Does correcting the wrong, without somehow penalizing BK, scratch the itch to even things? Aren't unprotected images posted on the 'net free game?

Common misconception legally speaking, though there is an element of that in reality. Purely in temrs of using photos, if you put something on Facebook where it can be shared and w.h.y., a court is likely to find that you granted an 'implied licence' to use the copyright photo elsewhere on Facebook, using the 'share' function. It's not so clear once you make the jump and take that photo from one place to another, and use for purposes quite other than intended. Say if I started up a jacket company and you bought one then posted photos here - and I lifted your photos and used them in an advert in my website or magazines for my product.... I highly doubt any court would find that legit.

Here, based on what I read on the thread (I've not seen the FB group), the bigger issue is less the re-use of the photos, more the fact that they seem to have been re-used to attack or belittle (which may be mere vulgar abuse or actionable defamation, depending on what exactly has been said) that is the issue. The best way to desl with this sort of thing would typically be to report it to FB for harassment or such, though I don't know just howm uch faith I'd have in that, given how lax I've found their 'community standards' to be elsewhere(!)

I think the issue is that BK and company used those images to disparage members here, not only SF but others as well. Simultaneously slandering other jacket makers and asserting their own superiority. While the images may well be free game, the way they are used speaks absolute volumes about this maker. It's a hideous, cowardly, unprovoked attack that's aimed at elevating the attacker. In short, a total dick move.

It doesn't seem exactly a sensible business move... I'm sure as many people will be put off by this sort of thing as might want to buy from a company who did this. Moreso. Maybe BK are simpyl donig so well now they feel they can afford / need to shed a few potential customers.

I'll add this, if members here had seen the fake Facebook "group" that he subsequently made private, where Andy posted photos taken from here, mocking members, mocking Aero, pretending like it was just a just a group of enthusiasts, I think some of his defenders would reconsider their position. It was brutal and beneath any manufacturer.

In the long run, I'd be very surprised if this did him any business favours. You only have to look at the range of jacket makers talked about here. There are several who are all about equal to each other quality wise, but what makes some more successful than others? Customer service is a very big part of ensuring brand loyalty, and in a niche like this, being perceived as an 'hnourable market player' can make or break a company.

I certainly wouldn't suggest targets necessarily suffer in silence, though it's also true that in my experience people who adopt this sort of approach to business soon end up only stopping shooting themselves in the foot to reload.

 

[ton312]

Well, that's the thing. The particular jacket referred to in this thread is one that has indeed been done by many companies over the years. It's notoriously hard to copyright clothing. You can copyright patterns for a short while, though - 20 years or so. So any legal protection in these historical jacket designs is long gone. Even Schott or Lewis, still-going concerns, can't stop anyone else from making jackets that look like theirs. BK wouldn't be the first company to feel ticked off if they put a lot of time into getting a new design on the market and popularising it only to find others doing the same or a similar model - I'm sure it's happened to everyone in the business at some time or another. In this case, it seems that the model they're annoyed about someone else doing is one that others were also doing before they did, which seems a bit odd, unless they think someone else has done something that they consider to be underhand. I'd be surprised if someone has had the opportunity to pilfer their patterns (which BK could legally protect); perhaps they suspect someone has acquired one of their jackets, taken it apart, and then made their own patterns and copied from there (which, I believe, is perfectly legal - back to the design itself not being protectable).

Of course, what's of value in this niche is the business reputation for good quality, good value, and good customer service. I sometimes wonder if those who react with anger to tings like this wouldn't be best off focussing elsewhere on how they can build their business up - or, indeed, if the sector they're trying to get into isn't already somewhat overcrowded. Let's face it - we're a niche audience, and thereis only so much space in the market for so many businesses to be viable. [huh]



I wodner is that the current source of anger: is this a new player who Andy feels has copied some of his range?



Nice photo - when does that date to? I know Aero recently revived this model from a pattern they did twenty odd years ago.



Common misconception legally speaking, though there is an element of that in reality. Purely in temrs of using photos, if you put something on Facebook where it can be shared and w.h.y., a court is likely to find that you granted an 'implied licence' to use the copyright photo elsewhere. It's not so clear once you make the jump and take that photo from one place to another, and use for purposes quite other than intended. Say if I started up a jacket company and you bought one then posted photos here - and I lifted your photos and used them in an advert in my website or magazines for my product.... I highly doubt any court would find that legit.

Here, based on what I read on the thread (I've not seen the FB group), the bigger issue is less the re-use of the photos, more the fact that they seem to have been re-used to attack or belittle (which may be mere vulgar abuse or actionable defamation, depending on what exactly has been said) that is the issue. The best way to desl with this sort of thing would typically be to report it to FB for harassment or such, though I don't know just howm uch faith I'd have in that, given how lax I've found their 'community standards' to be elsewhere(!)



It doesn't seem exactly a sensible business move... I'm sure as many people will be put off by this sort of thing as might want to buy from a company who did this. Moreso. Maybe BK are simpyl donig so well now they feel they can afford / need to shed a few potential customers.



In the long run, I'd be very surprised if this did him any business favours. You only have to look at the range of jacket makers talked about here. There are several who are all about equal to each other quality wise, but what makes some more successful than others? Customer service is a very big part of ensuring brand loyalty, and in a niche like this, being perceived as an 'hnourable market player' can make or break a company.

I certainly wouldn't suggest targets necessarily suffer in silence, though it's also true that in my experience people who adopt this sort of approach to business soon end up only stopping shooting themselves in the foot to reload.

Well said Edward, particularly that last bit...BK's strategy reminds me of Bobby Peru and the bank heist scene in the David Lynch film "Wild at Heart".

 

[Blackadder]

Toys McCoy
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/auc-life-sendai/item/10010933/
Westride
https://masuya1997.com/item/westride-aviator-jacket-brown-goat/
Levi's
http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/h222580849?lang=en
Real McCoy
http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/q109857311

A niche market indeed as all of the above except Westride have stopped making their repros of this design.

 

[Carlos840]

Toys McCoy
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/auc-life-sendai/item/10010933/
Westride
https://masuya1997.com/item/westride-aviator-jacket-brown-goat/
Levi's
http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/h222580849?lang=en
Real McCoy
http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/q109857311

A niche market indeed as all of the above except Westride have stopped making their repros of this design.

I'm not a fan of the back all these jackets have, but the fronts are awesome!