Need educating on pant's SLIDE closures -Talon & HF w/ Metal Talon Zips!

[Martina]

Hello! I have a question for you that I can't figure out, concerning the
closures on men's pants:

Buttons 1930s -40?

Metal talon zippers, with buttons at the top;
1950s but what about the 40s? Were there metal Talons then?
I have an old child's red and black plaid hunting jacket that has the
most HUGE brass Talon zipper and that's either 1940s of 50s.
(Where the heck is that primer on here about the zippers?).

Colored zippers, even Talons, 1960s and up right?

So, here's my most perplexing question..... what about those slides at the top of the zipper?

I have a suit dated 1941 that has a metal Talon zipper and a metal Talon
slide at the top. This is a Clipper Craft -pocket tag photo is below the pants.

Here's another one and I have quite a few like this one.. same metal Talon
zipper BUT some are HF slides and some are Talon slides. Is there a
difference in years for the two slides? And what about the inside button?

I thought the slides meant post 1960??

Can someone pleeeeeease help me out and maybe nudge me towards the zipper primer on here?

Thank you kindly!
~Martina~

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What's the size of the suit "dated" 1941? I suspect that none of those numbers refer to the date, but refer in fact to something else (possibly size or lot number). if from the same estate as the DB suit you posted elsewhere, it could be a size 41 jacket . . .

Zippers have been used in menswear since the early 30s. In editions of Apparel Arts from 1932, talon has many advertisements promoting their product for use in trousers. The majority of my 1930s/40s suits have talon or brand zippers. The "30s = buttons, 40s an up = zippers" story is just a story - otherwise known as an old wive's tale. It is false, no matter how many times it's reiterated on the eBay boards. Dispel yourself of this myth. American menswear does not conform to this myth. British stuff is different: They stuck with the buttons for longer in off-the-peg trousers. And bespoke trousers invariably have buttons, to this day.

You're right about the nature of the zip. Plastic zips are a surefire indicator of the 60s onwards. but metal zippers were also used in and after the 60s.

bk

 

[staggerwing]

You're right about the nature of the zip. Plastic zips are a surefire indicator of the 60s onwards. but metal zippers were also used in and after the 60s.

bk

Did people ever replace buttons with zippers on pants they owned? Ever since the cheap plastic zipper on a new and expensives Brooks Brothers suit pant broke (during an out of town meeting of course) I immediately take anything with plastic zippers I buy off the rack to a tailor and have them replaced with metal ones.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yeah, i've seen a number of pairs of trousers where the button fly has been replaced with a zip. These have generally been clearly home-done jobs and done badly, but yes, it was done.

bk

 

[Martina]

MORE Brown Suit Pics

Ok, here are some more photos of the brown suit (I know this one isn't gaberdine but it is wool):

The chest pocket is slanted downwards, toward the center of the jacket.

That's a piece of paper sticking out of the watch pocket, just so you don't miss it!

Isn't this called a gusset? It's right at the crotch area

Ok, I hope those help! Here are some specifics:
The jacket is 45" armpit to armpit (so maybe that is a size 41 and not a
1941 on the tag?) I am thinking that Baron is right, only because the waist
of the pants is 35.5" and aren't the pants generally 6" smaller than the suit
size, as in 41 Jacket, 35 pants? Anyway, the two pleats, dropped 1.5"
belt loops, 'v' back, cuffs and metal Talon zipper -does that make this
1950s then? Oh, and there is one of the older Union tags in the pocket
opposite the Clipper date/size pocket. Anyone ready to guess a year for me?

Let me know if I need to add anything else and thanks again fellas!

 

[The Wingnut]

Her's some zipper info after a quick search:

Talon was the first zipper company, started in 1893 as the Universal Fastener Company. The first truly reliable and modern zipper came off of engineer and designer Gideon Sundback's drafting table in 1913 and in 1917 was granted a patent under the name Separable Fastener.

It wasn't until the early 1930s when the clothing industry began promoting the (by then named)zipper as a method by which children could learn self-reliance in dressing themselves. In 1934 Lord Mountbatten convinced the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York to have their trousers made with zipper flies instead of button flies.

In 1937, the zipper won out over buttons in French fashion in the 'Battle of the Fly'. In the same year, Esquire Magazine extolled the virutes of the zipper for use in trouser flies...and things haven't been the same since.

--


...as far as the slide fasteners are concerned, no success. It may be possible to date the pants by the zipper itself, as there are subtle dfferences as the years progressed.

Post a close up of the union tag, and let's see another of the backside of the pants.

 

[Orgetorix]

Isn't this called a gusset? It's right at the crotch area

Ok, I hope those help! Here are some specifics:
The jacket is 45" armpit to armpit (so maybe that is a size 41 and not a
1941 on the tag?) I am thinking that Baron is right, only because the waist
of the pants is 35.5" and aren't the pants generally 6" smaller than the suit
size, as in 41 Jacket, 35 pants? Anyway, the two pleats, dropped 1.5"
belt loops, 'v' back, cuffs and metal Talon zipper -does that make this
1950s then? Oh, and there is one of the older Union tags in the pocket
opposite the Clipper date/size pocket. Anyone ready to guess a year for me?

Let me know if I need to add anything else and thanks again fellas!

A jacket with a 45" chest would be about a size 41, so yes, that's probably what 41 refers to.

As for the "gusset," it's the result of a method of laying out the trouser pattern on a length of cloth in such a way that it doesn't use as many yards of fabric. Let me see if I can describe this...Look at the picture below: It's a bespoke tailor's layout of the pattern on the cloth, prior to the individual pieces being cut out. On the left is the front part of one leg, and on the right is the back part.

See the pointy bit on the far right? See how it just touches the edge of the cloth? Many tailors (and virtually all RTW makers) would lay out the patterns differently, in a way that leaves the tip of that pointy bit hanging off the edge of the cloth (where I've marked a red line). A small triangular piece would then be cut to piece in the gap. That little triangular piece is what you called the "gusset." I don't think that's what it's really called, but I can't remember if it has another term. Doing it this way is sort of a shortcut, but it does use less cloth, which means less cost for the tailor/maker and therefore for the customer. And it's sometimes unavoidable, especially when cutting trousers for a very large person.

Martin Stall, a bespoke tailor, had a blog post that explained all this better than I have, but I think it got lost when he did some upgrades to his website.

 

[Martina]

A small triangular piece would then be cut to piece in the gap. That little triangular piece is what you called the "gusset."

So this would give the wearer more thigh room? Is that the meaning of the gusset?

 

[Orgetorix]

No, it's just necessary to have a complete pair of trousers if you lay the cloth out as I described above. It doesn't have anything to do with fit, as far as I'm aware. You could make a pair of trousers that fit just as well without it.

 

[Martina]

I get it now!
I haven't sewn a pair of pants in some time, so I was thinking that the cut you are talking about would be going in the wrong direction. Since this is a diamond shape and not a triangle, they would have had to cut BOTH sides of the pants that way, right?
I think you're right about fit though, as the waist of these hasn't been altered and I would be willing to bet that the pants' wearer didn't just suddenly gain weight in his thighs.

Thanks for answering... do you sew?

Martina

 

[Orgetorix]

I get it now!
I haven't sewn a pair of pants in some time, so I was thinking that the cut you are talking about would be going in the wrong direction. Since this is a diamond shape and not a triangle, they would have had to cut BOTH sides of the pants that way, right?

That's correct. The diamond shape is two triangular pieces side-by-side. Tailors normally cut out their patterns with the cloth doubled over, so that each side is identical to the other. If the fit needs to be altered on one side of the customer's body, they do that later. Unless, of course, the customer has a severe deformity on one side that makes a symmetrical pattern impossible.

Thanks for answering... do you sew?

Not really, I just like learning about tailoring and paying attention to those who do it. I've done small repairs to some of my clothes, and I'm working up the courage to try taking in the waist of a pair of trousers so that I can wear one of my suits again. I've daydreamed about becoming a bespoke tailor, but I don't think that'll ever be a reality.

 

[Martina]

Do you have a book on sewing/tailoring?
Taking in the waist isn't that big of a deal, especially if you have a book that shows you how. I was lucky enough to work in a dry cleaners/tailoring shop a number of years back, so I can do general repairs and sewing; I have a book around here somewhere that tells how to take in the waist. If you would like me to scan those pages and email them to you I could. Just let me know.
Take care,
~Martina~

 

[Orgetorix]

Do you have a book on sewing/tailoring?
Taking in the waist isn't that big of a deal, especially if you have a book that shows you how. I was lucky enough to work in a dry cleaners/tailoring shop a number of years back, so I can do general repairs and sewing; I have a book around here somewhere that tells how to take in the waist. If you would like me to scan those pages and email them to you I could. Just let me know.
Take care,
~Martina~

Hey, that'd be great. BK already gave me some advice, but more is always welcome. PM sent.