My Himel Experience (v2)

[jeo]

...I am very disappointed that FL is the place where the rare exceptions are going to in order resolve their issues...I will encourage anyone else if you ordered a bespoke jacket and you are unhappy and have legitimate grievance drop us an email to work it out. I cannot understand why anyone would come here to work out their problems without contacting me or parker first.....reach out instead of going online to complain, we are here and we care about what we do.

Dave I appreciate you coming on here to address this, but I didn't go online to "resolve my issues", I went to you. I did drop you an email, I did contact you first, I did reach out instead of going online to complain.

I showed you the chest pocket flaw, which IMO was the worst flaw. Technically the worst stitching flaw was the facing stitching but no one sees that. The worst overall flaw maybe the collar, but I didn't discover that until later.

I showed you the chest pocket flaw and this was your response to me:

"I talked it over with the team, unfortunately there is nothing we can do to make that stitch work look neater on that pocket because of the pocket placement. According to my main sewer, the problem was the leather is a bit slippery on that hide and the tape on the zipper caused some uneveness of the walking foot....I am really sorry about that...it wont happen again obviously. We are going to be much more focused on stitchwork especially using contrast thread"

 

[jeo]

but at least in Jeos case, he never actually formally complained,

Did you not read the post?

I emailed him and expressed my disappointment.

 

[TREEMAN]

Round and round we go .....

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Well it's because some are continually deflecting with BS, IMO..to be frank.

 

[jeo]

Jeo did not send Himel the photos of the worst stitching flaws. IMHO, and hindsight being 20/20, he should have led with the worst flaws rather than sending a single photo of a relatively benign flaw as compared to the much more egregious flaws elsewhere on the jacket.

I don't know, to me it was the worst flaw by far. If anyone of those flaws would be noticed, it would be that one, and that one flaw should have been enough, but I guess that is my opinion.

Round and round we go .....

You know, you're absolutely right. I gave my account. I will not go into it again. I do not think I needed or would have done anything differently.

 

[dlite90]

@Superfluous did you experience any similar issues with your jacket? I saw that you said you enjoy your 4 Himels.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Sorry that you and Carlos didn't get what you thought you were ordering.

 

[Superfluous]

@Superfluous did you experience any similar issues with your jacket? I saw that you said you enjoy your 4 Himels.

No. Six jackets purchased, four still owned, and no similar problems.

Had I received a jacket similar to that received by Jeo, my head would have exploded. That said, I am more confrontational than Jeo and I respect Jeo's more amicable approach (I am trying mightily to be more amicable and less confrontational in my daily interactions). Unfortunately, in most instances, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. On the other hand, a gentle, polite word often goes much further than manifest outrage. Here, Jeo's kind word should have been enough to start a respectful dialogue, as opposed to a flat denial.

 

[El Marro]

I would appreciate it that my character not be impugned. I have many customers on FL who have had incredible experiences and I felt quite badly about Carlos jacket. I would appreciate that you fellows perhaps moderate your speculation about my intentions anyone is welcome to pick up the phone and call me if they have any issue with their jacket.

This post resonates with me because I can’t imagine how I would feel if I were in his shoes. I think sometimes it is easy to lose sight of this when we are upset and to forget that we are all just people trying to accomplish something good here.
I’m glad that Dave Himel replied to this thread and I hope that Jeo accepts a remake.

 

[navetsea]

yeah it is a shame, usually when a contrast stitching jacket is ordered then the workmanship is a notch more careful than with tonal stitching since the client would be able to spot it immediately, seems like this one went the other way around. sometime you don't get chance to fix past error, in product and in relation due to one or other factors to complicate the matter like in Carlos case, better to send out photos first before the the jacket ever leaving the workshop, saving everybody from extra costs and time. let the customer be part of the qc, since he is the one who own the jacket he will be eyeballing the photos a lot more than a person who have to check QC of a stack of jackets in front of him.

still I can't understand how a clearly wonky stitching is being done until finish and not immediately stop, maybe mend the little holes somehow since leather products have lots of magic putty to make needle holes disappear and touch up the color in few dots I bet it would be non visible or at worst replace one panel, rather than a finishing wonky stitched panel and assembling together into a finished jacket, hoping to pass a qc.. which is somehow passed.

there is no exaggeration on how well these "bespoke" orders fit the clients very well and trim. and the designs are all cool understated look special.

 

[MrProper]

Seems it comes down to either poor Himel...or poor customer. Is it both?

I've asked parker to go back in his emails and see what resolution we came to. Again Parker was new and unused to qc at this time.

And poor Parker.
Even if Parker is in charge of quality control, as a boss, I would never publicly name an employee in a forum and thus pillory them.
If I'm the boss, I'll be in charge and I'll use my own name.

...assuming, of course, that Parker is an employee and not a partner.

 

[Marc mndt]

Thankyou for your kind and considerate opinion. I was legitimate in my response. I would ask a few things. Please consider that we care about what we do it is our chosen work. I would appreciate it that my character not be impugned. I have many customers on FL who have had incredible experiences and I felt quite badly about Carlos jacket. I would appreciate that you fellows perhaps moderate your speculation about my intentions anyone is welcome to pick up the phone and call me if they have any issue with their jacket. I am not some corporation we are a small team running on a shoestring doing something we care about

Thank you for responding.

This was and is indeed my opinion and my personal feeling. Sharing our opinions and how we feel about things is what we do here on this forum. We mostly praise jackets and their makers and continuously share how great we feel whenever we wear all these beautiful jackets. Like you mentioned, you have many customers here on TFL who have had incredible experiences, experiences which they do share. But sometimes we also share our less than positive opinions and feelings and I will continue to do so, even though that might not always be beneficial for the maker.

I initially added a link to my post. Instead of saying just look at the issues on Jeo's jacket I said just look at the issues on this jacket (follow link). I later edited my post and removed the link because I was afraid the forum mods would step in and remove my post (because I basically continued a discussion from another thread that was 'not open for further replies'). The linked post shows issues at least as severe (in my opinion) as the ones on Jeo's jacket. They were brought to the attention in the same thread where @Carlos840 brought the issues on his Chevalier to attention. The same thread where you/Parker stepped in, offering @Carlos840 a remake. Yet you only offered @Carlos840 a remake, ignoring the op's (Original Poster's) issues. Because of that, to me your response came across as cheap and easy damage control.

You might call it speculation, I call it sharing my opinion (which I will continue to do so). Unfortunately I could not substantiate my reasoning further because that would be continuing a thread that was already closed by the mods.

Cheers, Marc

 

[Marc mndt]

And poor Parker.
Even if Parker is in charge of quality control, as a boss, I would never publicly name an employee in a forum and thus pillory them.
If I'm the boss, I'll be in charge and I'll use my own name.

...assuming, of course, that Parker is an employee and not a partner.

+1. DH is basically throwing Parker under the bus. Saying "Parker was new and unused to qc".

 

[Carlos840]

So, Ive asked Parker to reply tomorrow. I will say it was badly sewn. We stand behind our work. I will of course happily remake the jacket Jonathan. I stand behind our work and if a customer wants a remake due to errors on our part, fit, bad sewing or any other mistake we try and resolve it, offer a solution. I've asked parker to go back in his emails and see what resolution we came to. Again Parker was new and unused to qc at this time. Errors happen in our production, it is rare, unusual and certainly not the norm. I am very disappointed that FL is the place where the rare exceptions are going to in order resolve their issues. I can certainly post reviews from the handfuls of customers we have remade jackets for at our expense, issues are typically wrong configuration, wrong measurements, or issues with buttons coming loose. This one jacket is not representative of the quality of our work and is the exception after 3500 plus jackets I am pretty sure if it was not the case people would be complaining and I would be out of business. So...in typical unedited format...JE get in touch with us, we will send you a shipping label and when we get the next shipment of dark brown in we will remake the jacket. I will encourage anyone else if you ordered a bespoke jacket and you are unhappy and have legitimate grievance drop us an email to work it out. I cannot understand why anyone would come here to work out their problems without contacting me or parker first. If I let you down Jonathan I will happily make it right, you liked your second jacket so I am going to assume the first one well made will bring you back to us. Again for anyone else if you have an issue we stand behind our work as there are thousands of customers who thank me and have become friends, reach out instead of going online to complain, we are here and we care about what we do.

After your first message where you offered me a remake i got in touch with Parker.
I told him i didn't start all this because i wanted a remake, but because i wanted to be honest and show people what my jacket was really like.
I also said i was happy to return my jacket for a remake as long as i was not expected to pay anything and that you guys had to deal with all expenses.
IMO this is fair considering i was sold a jacket with "serious issues" after being told i would get "best quality, best sewing, best leather" (your words not mine).
Parker told me "There is no way I’m going to be able to get David to pay the duties and taxes."
That to me was the end of that conversation...

After making thousands in sales from my pics on your website you still expect me to have to cash out more money to make up for your company's mistake...
That IMO is not "standing behind your work".

I personally don't want anything from you, i am letting you take the decision you want.
You are either ok with a jacket with "serious issues" bearing your name being in the wild or your are not...
I know how i would deal with that situation, we can all see how you are dealing with it.

 

[navetsea]

if I imagine I'm a jacket entrepreneur (which I'm not) and I see a finished jacket with this kind of QC problem about to leave the shop to the client, I would simply send these pictures regarding flaws to the client, apologize and give him option
- to keep the jacket with a discount (like a test product/ or B product) pay back the discount to the client, or
- to wait for a scheduled remake (and of course sell the finished jacket as a B product).
whichever they want, but it won't leave the shop without any greenlight from the client.

and tell the sewer to be more open about mistake they make the soonest they see it, and have plans to fix the mistakes according to its severity, not hiding them, let them be first gate of QC.

no need for future hassle or diplomacy.

 

[Carlos840]

if I imagine I'm a jacket entrepreneur (which I'm not) and I see a finished jacket with this kind of QC problem about to leave the shop to the client, I would simply send these pictures regarding flaws to the client, apologize and give him option
- to keep the jacket with a discount (like a test product/ or B product) pay back the discount to the client, or
- to wait for a scheduled remake (and of course sell the finished jacket as a B product).
whichever they want, but it won't leave the shop without any greenlight from the client.

and tell the sewer to be more open about mistake they make the soonest they see it, and have plans to fix the mistakes according to its severity, not hiding them, let them be first gate of QC.

no need for future hassle or diplomacy.

This is exactly 100% what Norshore leather did for me.
I ordered a jacket from him, he made it but was unhappy about the way he had stitched the collar.
He had tried "a new way" and wasn't 100% satisfied with the result.
He sent me pics, showing what he was unhappy about and offered to either send me that jacket at cost as a test jacket and then a remake if i was unhappy, or to remake it straight away as he now felt confidant he would 100% nail the collar.

I didn't want to pay customs twice so i opted to go with the remake straight away, Marc was cool about it, the remake is now in the post.

Point is, he knew he had produced something i might not be happy with and he wanted to OK it with me before shipping.
That is IMO a far better way to do things than just sending out flawed jackets hoping the customer won't notice or complain about it.


Edit: Marc actually tried to give me a discount on the remake to appologize for the trouble and the delay. I refused as i felt he had been honest in the way he dealt with the situation and i didn't want to take advantage of it.

 

[Riu]

This is exactly 100% what Norshore leather did for me.
I ordered a jacket from him, he made it but was unhappy about the way he had stitched the collar.
He had tried "a new way" and wasn't 100% satisfied with the result.
He sent me pics, showing what he was unhappy about and offered to either send me that jacket at cost as a test jacket and then a remake if i was unhappy, or to remake it straight away as he now felt confidant he would 100% nail the collar.

I didn't want to pay customs twice so i opted to go with the remake straight away, Marc was cool about it, the remake is now in the post.

Point is, he knew he had produced something i might not be happy with and he wanted to OK it with me before shipping.
That is IMO a far better way to do things than just sending out flawed jackets hoping the customer won't notice or complain about it.

There are more details to discuss when it comes to situations like these but, from a customer service perspective, the right way is for the maker to cover all the costs that come with the returns/remake whatever the outcome is.

I know it's a bit costly but since it's a faulty product there is no debate about it: the customer should not be charged for anything extra unless the fault on the product is caused by him. Simple rules, simple life

 

[Mark R]

Fantastic, balanced, respectful discussion. Very cool! My very quick takes.

1. The flawed stitching on Jeo’s jacket is unacceptable and it never should have left Himel’s shop. Apparently Himel was out of the country and one of his employees failed to exercise the appropriate QC. On the other hand, how did the sewer not recognize the obviously substandard stitching? Sounds like a case of employees acting irresponsibly while Himel was away. Unacceptable!

2. According to Himel’s post, he has since implemented new procedures to improve QC. Good idea.

3. Jeo did not send Himel the photos of the worst stitching flaws. IMHO, and hindsight being 20/20, he should have led with the worst flaws rather than sending a single photo of a relatively benign flaw as compared to the much more egregious flaws elsewhere on the jacket.

4. Jeo did not ask for a new jacket, nor follow-up in response to Himel’s initial unsatisfactory response. Therefore, given Jeo’s decision to immediately order a second jacket (Imperial), Himel arguably was reasonable in assuming that Jeo did not want a new jacket and was pleased with his Frobisher. On the other hand, it is not the responsibility of the customer to expressly demand a new jacket, particularly when paying $2,500 for the jacket. Rather, if the manufacturer – and a manufacturer of Himel’s class in particular – believes that the jacket is substandard, and the manufacturer has a stated policy of ensuring complete customer satisfaction, the manufacturer should offer a new jacket. My problem here is that the single photo presented to Himel does not clearly evidence a substandard jacket requiring replacement and, when considered in the context of Jeo’s immediate follow-up order, I can see how Himel missed the ball. I still think he should have tried harder to explore the issue with Jeo and ensure Jeo’s satisfaction, but the chronology mitigates Himel’s lapse.

5. As bad as Jeo’s and Carlos’ jackets are – and they are undeniably bad – this is not the standard operating procedure and typical quality of Himel’s jackets. To the contrary, most of Himel’s jackets exhibit far better workmanship, not to mention the leather and hardware, and most of Himel’s customers are very happy with their purchases. I have purchased six jackets from Himel and I was, and remain, thoroughly pleased with all six jackets.

6. Widespread customer satisfaction does not excuse Himel’s lapses in relationship to Jeo and Carlos. He plainly dropped the ball with them. No company can achieve 100% success and satisfaction. On the other hand, when a jacket has profoundly flawed stitching of the nature present on Jeo’s jacket, it should never see the light of day. On the other hand, given the chronology set forth above, Himel personally may never have known just how bad Jeo’s jacket was, that apparently was released by an employee while Himel was abroad.

7. Jeo was absolutely right to share his experience on TFL, particularly in light of Himel’s recent proclamation regarding customer service.

8. Himel’s willingness to make Jeo a new jacket is appropriate and noteworthy. Now that he understands the extent of the problem, he is stepping up to the plate, as he should, and resolving an issue that he previously did not fully recognize.

9. This thread and the balanced, respectful discourse epitomize everything good about TFL!

That sums it up perfectly for me.

 

[Mark R]

This is exactly 100% what Norshore leather did for me.
I ordered a jacket from him, he made it but was unhappy about the way he had stitched the collar.
He had tried "a new way" and wasn't 100% satisfied with the result.
He sent me pics, showing what he was unhappy about and offered to either send me that jacket at cost as a test jacket and then a remake if i was unhappy, or to remake it straight away as he now felt confidant he would 100% nail the collar.

I didn't want to pay customs twice so i opted to go with the remake straight away, Marc was cool about it, the remake is now in the post.

Point is, he knew he had produced something i might not be happy with and he wanted to OK it with me before shipping.
That is IMO a far better way to do things than just sending out flawed jackets hoping the customer won't notice or complain about it.


Edit: Marc actually tried to give me a discount on the remake to appologize for the trouble and the delay. I refused as i felt he had been honest in the way he dealt with the situation and i didn't want to take advantage of it.

And in my opinion in this case you both did the right thing, well done you in wanting to still pay the full price, many would have taken the discount regardless.

 

[navetsea]

if someone is very confident that this situation is only happening once every hale-bopp passing the earth then they shouldn't be worried to cover these extra tax and fee since in theory it only happens 1 or 2 time in thousands of jackets that ever reach the client in such condition, it practically never happens... but if this anomaly happens a bit more often.. then tough, that's why don't even send them out in the first place, don't even finish the jacket before fixing/ replacing the problem panels.

maybe giving a roll of ribbon with the sewer name printed on it, and make them sew their name on the finished product could trigger more personal pride of their workmanship, since their name too is forever tagged on the jacket.