morning suit grey and black stripe trousers

[metropd]

Anyone know where I could by really high quality morning suit grey and black stripe trousers in a 28 -30 waist but not those poly wool blend?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

British eBay: www.ebay.co.uk

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[Happy Stroller]

I wonder why the striped trousers went out of fashion? Was it too formal?

Virtually no businessman wears it. However, many a smart-looking career woman have an entire suit with a black and medium gray striped pattern.

Should the gray on this kind of formal trousers be dark (but no as black as Charcoal Gray) gray, medium gray or light gray? How wide should the stripes be? Also, should the black stripes be thinner than the gray stripes?

Yes, I've been looking for a source for this type of cloth in 100% Tropical Weight Worsted Wool, too.

 

[Orgetorix]

Pakeman Catto & Carter--only sizes 32 and up listed on their website, but they may be able to supply a smaller size if you contact them.

This thread over at the Ask Andy forums may provide some more options. I can't access it from work right now (strange web blocking policies), but I had it bookmarked and seem to remember there being a number of suppliers for morning wear listed there.

 

[Happy Stroller]

Thanks for the great leads, Orgetorix.

Unfortunately, the Pakeman Catto & Carter website offers only up 42" waist size pants. On the other hand, perhaps one could buy two pairs of pants and cannibalize their material to convert them into a larger pair of pants?

 

[Orgetorix]

Hmm...I doubt it. I think a better option would be to look around, visit some tailors and fabric shops, and try to find a source for the fabric itself. Shouldn't be all that hard. I don't know if morning coats are common in Shanghai or not, but if you're unable to find anything in your area, you might try emailing some British tailors and asking about how to get ahold of that fabric. But check with your tailor first.

 

[Happy Stroller]

So far, I don't know of any wool fabric retailer in Shanghai who offers black/grey stripe wool or even polyester mixed wool cloth.

The most popular groom's wedding suits are either all black or all white/ivory lounge suits in Shanghai's tropical climate. I don't see anyone walking around in Western Morning Dress. The only persons who wear black/grey stripe trousers are ladies, but I don't think they're using fabric which requires dry cleaning. The tailors are prepared to make what they call Swallow Tail Coats and Ceremonial Dresses by following the page-size patterns found in locally-published catalogues showing various kinds of suits.

 

[metropd]

I had recently bought a wool blend grey and black stripe "hickory" morning pants. Can't I wear them after 6 like the did in Edwardian times"retorical question"? This 6pm rule is stupid, Why because when these hickory morning pants were fashionable late 18'00s to 1920's they were worn with frock coats and other jackets after 6. The modern day substitute of a frock coat is the stroller jacket which can be worn with a top hat homburg or derby. So it does not make sense that thse pants now after their hayday must abide by some fashion police rule after they went out of style that did not apply when they were in style. The morning coat I understand hence the term morning coat but the pants, :rage: :rage:

 

[Happy Stroller]

Could the reason be not so much a rule against wearing striped trousers at night, but rather due to the existence of the dress rule that trousers at night should be very dark in color?

 

[Orgetorix]

I had recently bought a wool blend grey and black stripe "hickory" morning pants. Can't I wear them after 6 like the did in Edwardian times"retorical question"? This 6pm rule is stupid, Why because when these hickory morning pants were fashionable late 18'00s to 1920's they were worn with frock coats and other jackets after 6. The modern day substitute of a frock coat is the stroller jacket which can be worn with a top hat homburg or derby. So it does not make sense that thse pants now after their hayday must abide by some fashion police rule after they went out of style that did not apply when they were in style. The morning coat I understand hence the term morning coat but the pants, :rage: :rage:

If you did, what would you wear them with? Both stroller and morning coat are intended for daytime wear, and those are what the 'hickory stripe' trousers are meant to be paired with. I suppose you could wear them with any old coordinating gray or black jacket, but then you'd be pretty firmly into fashion-forward style--at which point the rules sort of go out the window by definition.

One exception to this, though--if you're wearing either a stroller or morning coat to a daytime event that will go on beyond 6 PM (like an afternoon wedding with an evening reception), don't worry about changing into evening clothes just to adhere to a rule.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Curiouser and curiouser...I am also interested in a good woolen pair of formal striped trousers, but have finally concluded that I just ought to have my tailor make them for me in the semi-near future as I am rather tired of the gray twill trousers which I've been wearing with my frock-coat.

 

[dhermann1]

While we're on the subject, I have a couple of questions. I've seen pics of good old Winston Churchill on his way the the House wearing what looks like a morning suit with a black stroller jacket. Is the stroller interchangeable with the cutaway? Would it have been common business attire for a mid 1930's businessman? Or would it already have been obsloescent?

 

[Evan Everhart]

While we're on the subject, I have a couple of questions. I've seen pics of good old Winston Churchill on his way the the House wearing what looks like a morning suit with a black stroller jacket. Is the stroller interchangeable with the cutaway? Would it have been common business attire for a mid 1930's businessman? Or would it already have been obsloescent?

A stroller ensemble is exactly the same in every respect to the ensemble which coordinates with Morning wear whether that Morning wear incorporates a cut-away frock coat or a full skirted frock coat but, like the cut-away frock coat which is more informal than the formal double breasted and silk faced full-skirted frock-coat (though there were single breasted models which were also somewhat more informal than a double-breasted model but still more formal than a cut-away model)...I am ranting...But, like I was saying, the cut-away model is more informal and can be worn with a turn-down (though hopefully still detachable) collar, the stroller is likewise worn with a turn-down collar for preference. In fact, the turn down collar is used exclusively with the stroller ensemble....That is the only real difference. The stroller is like wearing black tie but with a smoking jacket instead of even the semi-formal dinner jacket (full formal being the tail coat worn with white tie). I am ranting again! But yeah! The striped trousers were perfectly alright and acceptable. A stroller ensemble is generally speaking simply the waist-coat, trousers and the like that go with Morning wear in a more informal form....So, do I sound like enough of a wind-bag yet? Sorry. I just REALLY get into formal wear! Love the stuff!

 

[filfoster]

Mourning the Morning

http://www.quartermastershop.com/Civilian Clothing/morning_frock.html

 

[Orgetorix]

Evan, you should start posting in the What are You Wearing Today thread. I want to see you in your frock coat.

 

[Edward]

Re the OP, Marc is quite right - eBay UK is full of them. The cut hasn't changed enormously over time, so you could find some nice stuff in the Wedding Wear section, though usually plenty of them in vintage clothing, the men's section (well, duh), that are all-wool.

I had recently bought a wool blend grey and black stripe "hickory" morning pants. Can't I wear them after 6 like the did in Edwardian times"retorical question"? This 6pm rule is stupid, Why because when these hickory morning pants were fashionable late 18'00s to 1920's they were worn with frock coats and other jackets after 6. The modern day substitute of a frock coat is the stroller jacket which can be worn with a top hat homburg or derby. So it does not make sense that thse pants now after their hayday must abide by some fashion police rule after they went out of style that did not apply when they were in style. The morning coat I understand hence the term morning coat but the pants, :rage: :rage:

I imagine you can indeed wear them later if you so choose - formal and semi-formar daywear are such a rare thing now, sadly, that I shouldn't think they'd look like anything other than 'a pair of stripey trousers' to most folks. [huh] The traditional rule I presume is simply a reflection of the fact that when those 'rules' were the social norm, noone would wear the striped trousers after 6pm as they would be instead wearing the appropriate evening trousers to go with black orf white tie. [huh]

While we're on the subject, I have a couple of questions. I've seen pics of good old Winston Churchill on his way the the House wearing what looks like a morning suit with a black stroller jacket. Is the stroller interchangeable with the cutaway? Would it have been common business attire for a mid 1930's businessman? Or would it already have been obsloescent?

Evan covers it well above, but in essence, yes - broadly speaking, the big difference between semi formal and full formal daywear is the jacket. The two are much closer one another than black and white tie ensembles (particularly on this side of the Atlantic, where evening trousers to be worn with white tie should properly have a dual stripe, not the one as with black tie. The US approach, using both, is of course wonderfully practical for constructing a 'capsule' evening wardrobe...).

I'm not sure when semiformal daywear began to fade out of common usage: certainly it is virtually never seen here in the UK nowadays - occasions such as weddings and Ascot where traditional daywear does appear tend to be all about the tails, not the stroller. The opposite of what has happened with formal evening wear, oddly enough, where white tie is only very rarely seen now, black tie being the standard. Certainly, though, I've seen photos from the 30s which would appear to suggest that at least here in the City it was as much the uniform of businessmen and those in finance as the bold pinstripe is nowadays.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Evan, you should start posting in the What are You Wearing Today thread. I want to see you in your frock coat.

And I want to see Evan at the Cicada Club. It's the best, most appreciative L.A. venue for him to wear all this stuff.

.

 

[dhermann1]

Another follow up question. If you're wearing a stroller, with a fold down collar, are you wearing a cravat or a WSC polka dor bow tie? And is a WSB homburg OK with it? How about spats?

 

[avedwards]

Another follow up question. If you're wearing a stroller, with a fold down collar, are you wearing a cravat or a WSC polka dor bow tie? And is a WSB homburg OK with it? How about spats?

I would have thought a four in hand necktie is safest personally. According to wikipedia at least, though it often lacks info so I realise I may be wrong. A homburg should also be right I think, though a bowler is better for daywear (being forbidden for evening wear). Spats are acceptable for morning dress so I think they are for a stroller as well.

However, I agree that a stroller is obselete in Britain. Even in the 1960s, you never see Connery's Bond wearing one, though he wears the evening equivalent of black tie. My thought would be that while a stroller is technically the daytime equivalent of black tie, I think a smart three piece suit can be worn in lieu of a stroller without being satorially wrong. Being semi-formal and not formalwear I think the boundaries are less strict anyway. Though I could be wrong as I am just guessing based on film observations.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Evan, you should start posting in the What are You Wearing Today thread. I want to see you in your frock coat.

I'll have my fiance take a picture of me in my frock coat with my yellow waist-coat and my stock collar and a cravat or something. Thanks for the encouragement sir! I'll be glad to oblige you!