morning suit grey and black stripe trousers

[Evan Everhart]

Evan covers it well above, but in essence, yes - broadly speaking, the big difference between semi formal and full formal daywear is the jacket. The two are much closer one another than black and white tie ensembles (particularly on this side of the Atlantic, where evening trousers to be worn with white tie should properly have a dual stripe, not the one as with black tie. The US approach, using both, is of course wonderfully practical for constructing a 'capsule' evening wardrobe...).

I'm not sure when semiformal daywear began to fade out of common usage: certainly it is virtually never seen here in the UK nowadays - occasions such as weddings and Ascot where traditional daywear does appear tend to be all about the tails, not the stroller. The opposite of what has happened with formal evening wear, oddly enough, where white tie is only very rarely seen now, black tie being the standard. Certainly, though, I've seen photos from the 30s which would appear to suggest that at least here in the City it was as much the uniform of businessmen and those in finance as the bold pinstripe is nowadays.

Ach! You are correct sir! I omitted the double stripe rule! I was not discussing it as a comparative though, merely a tool of reference to help illustrate the difference in steps and formality from full formal (white tie; full-skirted double breasted frock coats for day-wear and evening tails with white tie and waist-coat for evening), to half-formal (cut-away frock coats and single-breasted frock coats for day-wear and dinner jackets for evening wear with black tie) and then to semi-formal (smoking jackets worn with evening clothes or strollers for day). The whole exercise was really to illustrate the various gradations of formality which exist in formal wear. Anyhow, good show mentioning it, as it is highly important to an appropriate understanding of formal wear.

 

[Evan Everhart]

I would have thought a four in hand necktie is safest personally. According to wikipedia at least, though it often lacks info so I realise I may be wrong. A homburg should also be right I think, though a bowler is better for daywear (being forbidden for evening wear). Spats are acceptable for morning dress so I think they are for a stroller as well.

However, I agree that a stroller is obselete in Britain. Even in the 1960s, you never see Connery's Bond wearing one, though he wears the evening equivalent of black tie. My thought would be that while a stroller is technically the daytime equivalent of black tie, I think a smart three piece suit can be worn in lieu of a stroller without being satorially wrong. Being semi-formal and not formalwear I think the boundaries are less strict anyway. Though I could be wrong as I am just guessing based on film observations.

A homburg or a stroller would be perfectly acceptable and equally acceptable for a stroller ensemble and while a homburg would be acceptable with a cut-away frock coat, I would not say that a bowler would be necessarily appropriate with a cut-away frock coat. The bowler is more appropriately worn with informal or semi-formal wear as it started as a piece of equestrian gear.

As far as I am concerned, I have always disliked the look of a stroller...I choose and wear a regular old cut-away frock coat or full-skirted frock-coat for preference! I LOVE my full-skirted frock-coat! The stroller is actually not the day-time equivalent of black tie as per full black tie as worn with a dinner jacket, but rather with black tie in its semi-formal incarnation; a smoking jacket ensemble. The stroller is the most informal of formal wear for day-time.

Call me old-fashioned, but I would say that the three piece suit should really be reserved for leisure as it was originally meant for and for business; the arena in which it has proved itself since the implosion of the structures of Western society which took place during and after WWI.

If the occasion is formal, do it justice and enjoy yourself! well-fitted formal wear is some of the most elegant and flattering clothing you can ever wear and you don't do yourself justice if you don't take advantage of every occasion to do so!

 

[Evan Everhart]

Another follow up question. If you're wearing a stroller, with a fold down collar, are you wearing a cravat or a WSC polka dor bow tie? And is a WSB homburg OK with it? How about spats?

I would personally never wear a cravat with a turn down collar unless it was in an informal manner (the cravat is worn inside of an open collar for casual activities such as casual or semi-casual riding etc.). I personally feel that a formally worn cravat gets lost underneath a turn-down collar and does not look nearly as elegant as it can and should. with a stroller, a neck-tie or a bow-tie are worn for preference. Spats and a homburg are perfectly OK with a stroller! Spats are OK with any formal day wear as long as they are formal buttoning spats in appropriate material.

I have a quick question for you now; what do the abbreviations "WSC", and "WSB" mean? I have never heard these.

I personally do not wear strollers (I prefer cut-away frock-coats or full-skirted frock-coats), but they really ought to be worn with a turn down collar as they are semi-formal, not even half-formal and the turn-down collar is contemporaneous with the turn-down collar and was usually originally worn with a turn-down collar from most of images of strollers that I've seen.

I've probably repeated myself too much on this...Hope I don't sound like too much of a blow-hard, I'm just dead tired and too exhausted to re-read or edit. Hope I've been helpful sir and good show and good luck on sporting your formal-wear! Put up a picture!

 

[JOHNNYBABE]

I wonder why the striped trousers went out of fashion? Was it too formal?

Virtually no businessman wears it. However, many a smart-looking career woman have an entire suit with a black and medium gray striped pattern.

Should the gray on this kind of formal trousers be dark (but no as black as Charcoal Gray) gray, medium gray or light gray? How wide should the stripes be? Also, should the black stripes be thinner than the gray stripes?

Yes, I've been looking for a source for this type of cloth in 100% Tropical Weight Worsted Wool, too.

You could be right that it is too formal. There were several isolated instances in my life (I'm now 68) when I recall hickory stripe trousers were worn. President John F. Kennedy wore them in the White House for certain daytime affairs of state, Sir Anthony Eden of Great Britain regularly wore them, the aids to both Francis Cardinal Spellman and the Papal Nuncio wore them and locally, two funeral directors (the Keenan brothers) wore them regularly with black Homburg hats and gray cotton gloves at funerals. The effect was quite striking and very diplomatic. The alternating gray and black stripes were never more than a quarter of an inch in width were sometimes segregated by a thin silver fleck to accentuate the two alternating shades. Some trousers had an almost cordoury feel to the alternating stripes. Another effect which I'd term "a cousin" to that syle is the khaki or sand chino trouser with a navy blue blazer. The effect is academic, preppy yet holds its appeal and good taste for a multitude of different types of occasions. When my daughter-in-law passed away a few years ago, I felt the urge to wear hickory stripe trousers with a black double breasted blazer at the wake and funeral. Most people seemed to take little notice but I did; actually, receive several nice compliments. Looking at old American cabinet cards from the later part of the 19th century, the combination seemed to be a favorite amongst young men for their sittings. For ladies, a black and gray hickory stripe suit exudes a distinctive look of professionalism and importance which I've seen both in a corporate setting and in courts of law. I just think that it's entirely up to the individual, their mood, their view of the occasion and their own self confidence if it feels correct for them. Personally, I wish it were back in style.