Morning dress

[Dr Kilroy]

Hello!

I have got a few questions for you.

1. What do you think about wearing bow ties with morning dress?

2. What do you think about lack of pocket square and breast pocket on morning coat?

3. A few variations on morning dress, which usually are not included in guides (or that are not black or oxford grey morning coats with one or two buttons and pointed or step lapels): which ones are correct in your opinion?

a) morning coat with lapels faced in silk (it is probably derived from a frock coat):

High resolution

b) shawl collared morning coat:

c) double breasted morning coat (which button configuration is the best in your opinion? In mine four, button one):

d) navy morning coat, or a morning coat with gilt buttons, or a morning coat with three buttons:

After all, I welcome you to Morning Dress Guide.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Charlie Huang]

1. Bow ties are acceptable. Evidence to be found in Dress Worn at His Majesty's Court were it is advised that those who wear neck badges of Orders should wear a bow tie with morning dress. Therefore it is certainly decreed to be correct to do so. And as per vintage examples, etc.

2. If there is no breast pocket, then you can't really do anything about it. I think this is discussed on the other topic post. If there is one, wear a square.

3. They are all 'correct'. When morning coats were worn like lounge suit today they came in all manner of shapes and lapels and buttons. I would say that you shouldn't go see the Queen in anything by the prescribed 1B PL as anything else is considered 'informal'.

a) never seen a half faced coat before but I don't see why not. Probably suitable for something festive but as per above, not in formal occasions.

b) again, see above.

c) TBH, I would love a DB morning coat as it is a guarenteed something that no-one else will be sporting.

d) I draw the line here as it is beginning to border into the realms of very informal like a blazer more like...

 

[Fifty150]

I like to break the rules. Make it unique. Do something just a little different than the next guy. Stand out and be stylish. Set a new trend.

 

[Cobden]

I think it's worth bearing in mind the period of the images; in the Edwardian era, the morning coat occupied a level of formality akin the the business suit holds currently, and such flamboyance was rather more understandable and acceptable. When the morning coat was kicked up into formal wear, replacing the double breasted frock coat (previously the most formal of day wear), the "rules" became stricter, and the morning coat took on more formal features (such as the peaked lapel and single button fastening). Over the same period of time, some features of day wear began to be seen as eveningwear features (I'm thinking here about satin lapels and the like), and thus one stops seeing them on "standard" morning dress. Bow ties are an interesting one - I wouldn't do it myself as I think it looks strange, but if one wears a bow-tie as the norm during the day, I can't see why not. My concern is more that it looks a bit "formal wear mix and match"

Thus, IMHO (and it is just that - my opinion!) I think they are items of clothing from a different era, whose modern descendant has changed and become more codified, and as such I wouldn't wear one to a modern wedding or some such - unless it had a specific Edwardian theme. Perhaps in grey at ascot double breasted may work.

The rules of dress may seem silly, but they exist for a reason. Without them, men would have to use judgement and intuition and other horrible things that poor women are saddled with, and I for one do not think I could cope!

 

[Derek WC]

What do you guys think of wearing morning dress to church?

 

[avedwards]

What do you guys think of wearing morning dress to church?

I do not consider myself religious (I follow some odd quantum-physical ideas of my own) but in my impartial opinion I think it is acceptable so long as your intention is not to outdress or show anyone else up. Make sure that people are aware that you are simply dressing up for your personal satisfaction (assuming this is the case) so that they do not feel uncomfortable.

At the end of the day it is your choice how you dress and morning dress is formalwear, so wearing it to church should hopefully be seen as respectful of the church.

 

[Derek WC]

I live in a small town, extremely informal, and the only churches around here where they at least wear a suit are the small sized catholic churches of which I plan on attending one soon. I do intend on wearing morning dress to church not to show anybody how much money I have (I'm really quite poor in fact, living in an apartment) or anything like that, but to show respect to the Lord.

What would you say is the least formal morning dress you can wear? I don't plan on wearing a topper, but probably a gray homburg with a black band or a black bowler.

 

[Cobden]

I'd say that morning dress is reserved for more festive occasions. A black lounge/stroller/Streseman would be appropriate, but I think that a morning coat is too formal

 

[avedwards]

I live in a small town, extremely informal, and the only churches around here where they at least wear a suit are the small sized catholic churches of which I plan on attending one soon. I do intend on wearing morning dress to church not to show anybody how much money I have (I'm really quite poor in fact, living in an apartment) or anything like that, but to show respect to the Lord.

What would you say is the least formal morning dress you can wear? I don't plan on wearing a topper, but probably a gray homburg with a black band or a black bowler.

I still stand by my opinion that you should wear whatever you want to or feel comfortable in, even if that's morning dress. Just make sure other people know your intentions as that will avoid them feeling uncomfortable. I think a homburg or bowler would be inappropriate for morning dress though; it has to be a topper or hatless in my opinion. As Cobden pointed out a stroller might be a suitable alternative as well as more practical should you be in a small church.

 

[Derek WC]

Etiquette is making those around you not uncomfortable. What do these other coats look like? I did a Google search and the only thing that came up was baby strollers and people with that last name. I might consider it if I see them.
I have seen pictures of men in the twenties wearing homburgs and bowlers with morning attire, and the twenties is the general style I wish to shoot for.

 

[Cobden]

Strollers/Black Lounge/Streseman's are semi-formal daywear (day equivalent of black tie, whereas morning dress is more white tie in formality level). Basically, it's a morning coat with a normal black jacket

 

[Derek WC]

Ahh, so I would wear everything you would with a gray morning coat, except with a plain black jacket of any kind? What about the waistcoat? If that is so, than all I need is a waistcoat and I've already got the whole outfit. I'm not sure about the pants though, would you want me to take a picture of them? They are a medium-dark gray with white-blue somewhat faint pinstripes.

 

[Lokar]

"Stroller"/"Black Lounge" (which, as discussed over at the Cutter and Tailor, is a quite modern name to something that used to not have one) needs to have peaked lapels, I believe.

Also, I'd not advise wearing any hat except for a top hat with morning dress - would be very inappropriate.

As for wearing morning dress, I'd advise against it, except for maybe very special occasions (e.g. Easter, weddings). Even then, it's a bit much, and you'd have to always be in a suit every other occasion. People will feel you're trying to show them up, that you're trying to be different, that you're not taking things seriously - even if none of those are true. You need to take into account how others will react, especially when going to church - distracting or upsetting other churchgoers is a very un-Christian thing to do.

It does depend a bit on your church, though. The more formal the church, the less of a problem it'd be.

 

[Cobden]

"Stroller"/"Black Lounge" (which, as discussed over at the Cutter and Tailor, is a quite modern name to something that used to not have one) needs to have peaked lapels, I believe.

I think it's like the dinner jacket with regards lapels - though peaked was certainly the norm in the UK.

For normal wear, black waistcoat (though grey and buff is fine, probably the norm these days). Trousers are the same cashmere stripes as worn with a morning coat

 

[Lokar]

You're quite right, of course.

Also, I dug up the Cutter and Tailor stuff.

Note that there's no mention of "black lounge" or "stroller". This is a British publication. We never used any term to refer to this, it was just another way of wearing a lounge coat. The idea of giving it a label was an American thing, and we much later came up with a more British term to use.

Other publications that agree with this, and a discussion (not about this per se, but the subject is brought up), can be found at http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=84

 

[Cobden]

I have seen an earlier reference (1920's) with the term "black lounge suit" being used, which explains what it is (it's from an British officers' instructions on how to dress when not in uniform). I believe that "black lounge suit" simply came from the the fact that, as all black was the preserve of evening dress, if it was a black suit (usually at this time called a lounge suit, of course) it implied that it had cashmere striped trousers, in the same manner that if they said a purple lounge suit it implied the jacket, waistcoat and tie were purple. Of course, with people now using suit to mean "clothes that match" rather then "clothes that go together", I would imagine the word suit is usually dropped to save confusion

 

[avedwards]

"Stroller"/"Black Lounge" (which, as discussed over at the Cutter and Tailor, is a quite modern name to something that used to not have one) needs to have peaked lapels, I believe.

I've seen plenty of pictures suggesting that a notched lapel was equally correct to a peaked lapel, even in the UK. I would personally choose a peaked lapel or a DB jacket to bump up the formality though.

 

[Lokar]

I've seen plenty of pictures suggesting that a notched lapel was equally correct to a peaked lapel, even in the UK. I would personally choose a peaked lapel or a DB jacket to bump up the formality though.

DB I would definitely disagree with. The lounge suit is single breasted. There is no such thing as a double breasted lounge suit (a reefer jacket is what we call a double breasted jacket). Black lounge implies a lounge suit, which is single breasted by definition.

Cobden: That's interesting, but I think it's just coincidental - it's a black "lounge suit", rather than a "black lounge" suit. Even the Victorians wouldn't wear all black except eveningwear and at funerals, so a black lounge suit needs different trousers. You'll note on the link I posted that cashmere stripes were by no means the only option in the past - checked trousers, for example, were perfectly fine. This rigidity and defining it as a form of dress like black or white tie is a modern concept.

However, I'd really like to read the source you mentioned - can you remember what it was called or where you found it?

 

[Cobden]

Oh, definately - indeed cashmere stripes aren't even necessary with morning dress, merely trying to keep things simple. As I say, I think the name was merely a transfer from black "lounge suit" to "black lounge" suit over time, or rather when trying to give it a name they merely used what was common.

I can't remember the name of the source directly, but it was early 20's and went into some detail as to how an officer of the British Army should act both on and off duty. The black lounge (worn with bowler hat) was considered mandatory for officers of the Guards (and indeed bowler hats are still worn by retired guards officers at remembrance services) when out of uniform

 

[JimWagner]

What do you guys think of wearing morning dress to church?

For a normal Sunday service I wouldn't think it appropriate today and not likely to draw positive reactions.