Modern custom vs Vintage

[univibe88]

Hi everyone, I'm a newbie.

"Hi newbie!"

Ok, now that we have that out of the way. I've done enough reading around here to gather that modern "off the rack" hats from the likes of Stetson and Borsalino are not considered nearly as good as their vintage counterparts.

It seems that hats made in the 40s and 50s have a high level of quality that is unmatched by today's hats. But how do the hats coming from the custom-makers like Art Fawcett, Optimo, etc compare to hats from the "Golden Era?"

Are custom makers of today limited by their access to quality materials? Do they just not make felt like they used to? Or are the makers of today able to make a comparable product?

From a quality point of view (price notwithstanding) can one buy a modern custom hat that equals a vintage hat?

Thanks

 

[indycop]

Hi univibe88 I think I noticed you are on Cigarweekly also!

I can't help much, I have one of Art's hats and I see my wife's vintage hats Stetson included and from what I see I am not missing anything. Art's are just as good even better to me. Serious quality felt and workmanship.

 

[surely]

Hiya Karl. I've never played with a modern custom but I bet that those who have will say probably that they are of better quality than vintage. If that's true you are in for a treat for the vintage hats I have are a wonder to touch and wear.

 

[RedPop4]

It's a fair question, Karl.

 

[Delthayre]

Nearly as it once was

This has wondered me too. My recently acquired Vintage Silhouettes hat is certainly far finer than the Biltimore produced Village Hat Shop Cagney that I have been wearing since 2004, but I've never had the opportunity to investigate a vintage one.

I would suppose that the quality of the work that the hatter does, viz. the sewing of the liner and headband, blocking, and trimming might well be at least on par with vintage hats, but I would not be so sure that the materials are equal to those of old, especially the felt, simply because there is scarce economic incentive for any manufacturers to manufacture truly superlative supplies.

 

[cooncatbob]

I have 3 of Art's hats and a bunch of hats that I got off e-bay. Most of the e-bay hats are pretty nice but the fit is hit or miss and a stretcher is a necessary item.
The 3 hat's I got from Art all fit perfectly. The quality of the craftsmanship and the materials is outstanding. I was able get unique ribbon, brim width and crown height combinations that I couldn't get with vintage or off the shelf.

 

[Ande1964]

I own one Art creation, and have looked at and held Optimo hats. I also own some very nice vintage lids... a Whippet from 1950, a wonderful Cavanagh, a Brooks Brothers that has amazing felt, a decent Borsalino, and others.

In my opinion, the felt on the best of my vintage hats is not quite as nice as the pure beaver you'll get from Art or Graham. There are other factors, of course... styling, craftsmanship, and fit. Overall, a custom lid from either of those gentlemen beats out vintage, in my experience.

If you're a small-head, though, you're going to pay a good deal more for the custom. For big guys, the difference is not so drastic.

Anj

 

[Tomasso]

But how do the hats coming from the custom-makers like Art Fawcett, Optimo, etc compare to hats from the "Golden Era?"

I took my father and uncle to Optimo around seven or eight years ago (they were in their 80's) and treated them to custom hats. They both concurred that they were as good or better than any hats that they had ever owned, and over the years they had owned the best. Mind you, I told them that they cost just $100 (Graham and the girls played along) so that should be taken into account.

 

[AlanC]

Quality levels varied wildly among vintage hats, of course. I've got two or three vintage hats and a couple of felts from Art. That's really not a wide enough sample for me to make any sweeping statements, but I do like my hats from Art very much. For me the ability to work with Art for exactly the style, color and ribbon I want all with a fit customized to my head compared to the risk of the ebay world gives the very strong advantage to Art (or Optimo, if you prefer). I'll buy vintage, but things really have to align just the right way.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I took my father and uncle to Optimo around seven or eight years ago (they were in their 80's) and treated them to custom hats. They both concurred that they were as good or better than any hats that they had ever owned, and over the years they had owned the best. Mind you, I told them that they cost just $100 (Graham and the girls played along) so that should be taken into account.

Tomasso, you are a true gentleman.

 

[duggap]

I have five of Art's hats and no vintage hats. I apply the argument previously stated, that a new custom eliminates problems with fit, etc. Each time one buys off ebay you are taking a chance it is not as represented, the prices keep going up, and the fit is hit or miss. It may be soon that the custom is the real bargain.

 

[Edward]

While vintage hats are, like so many things of the past, often much better than equivalent items in today's world of disposable fashion, I do often feel that this can be exaggerated. That said, I'm not a vintage purist, by which I mean what I love is the vintage style: if I am able to buy an accurate reproduction of a good quality at a cheaper price, or without spending years searching for one that will fit me, then that suits me just fine. Others prefer to buy vintage, or vintage only - down to personal choice. I do believe which type you are can have a big impact on your feelings as to whether moddern can be as good as vintage. My own opinion (which is probably worth precisely what you're paying for it ) is that there are modern production hats out there which are every bit as good as a vintage hat, although you may find (especially if you buy something other than one of the big vintage brands like Borsolino) that you can get lucky and get hold of vintage for less.

Thinknig about custom hats, much like a bespoke suit a hat produced specifically for you and to your own individual measurements will, unless you are very lucky, be a better hat for you than a vintage production hat, it seems to me.

The biggest difference, in my opinion, between vintage and modern (assuming the best examples of each) is that the older hat will simply have had longer to 'live' and 'breathe;' the felt will have aged and softened (while maintaining its shape), developed a feel that will be unlikely to be possible with a newly made hat. (I hope that makes some sense, I'm not aeticulating it as well as I could, I'm sure).

Which is all a long winded way of saying..... which suits you best? What fits you best? do you specifically want a vintage hat, or is it the vintage style you want, made for you?

 

[univibe88]

if I am able to buy an accurate reproduction of a good quality at a cheaper price, or without spending years searching for one that will fit me, then that suits me just fine.

This hits the nail on the head for me. I am not married to vintage for the sake of being vintage.

I don't want to spend years looking for a vintage hat, but I wanted to make sure that I really can get an equivalent quality hat today. Thanks for everyone's response to this thread. It appears that I can.

It's now time to start really thinking about the details I want in my hat - and saving my nickels!

PS. Tomasso, very cool! Indycop, yes I'm a frequent poster at CW.

 

[scotrace]

Just a few short years ago, the statement "modern hats are equal to vintage examples" would have met with instant and profound disagreement here (and we may yet see that happen in this thread).

That has certainly changed. The lightweight felt I have from VS is every bit as dense and fine as any vintage hat in my modest collection, or that I have had my hands on. It approaches the best of the vintage Borsalino hats.

My opinion is that the felt hat quality spectrum in 2008 is probably the best it has been since 1955 or so. Moderate grade hats of today (Akubra dress) compare favorably with moderate grade hats of, say, 1948 (Adam). And the best made today (Optimo, VS, and others) compare favorably with the best Stetson, Borsalino, etc., hats of 1948.

That said, overall, you will find generally superior felt in even the cheaper lines of vintage hats (my Lee was a cheapish hat in its day, and it is made of extraordinarily excellent felt). IF you know what you are looking at, and what to look for.

I don't know if any hat will ever equal the Mercury-made felts one finds back into the 1930's and earlier, and those hats are certainly to be prized.

But it would be hard to overstate the excellence of the work being done by the best modern hatters, and I know that there are others learning the craft right now, so that situation will only improve over the next couple of decades.

So can you get a modern hat made that is as good as a great vintage hat? Yes, you can. But good vintage hats are still worth every second of the search for them.

 

[spiridon]

Karl,
I'll bring you some "samples" of each to the herf in April for you to check out if you'd
like.

 

[univibe88]

Karl,
I'll bring you some "samples" of each to the herf in April for you to check out if you'd
like.

Please do

 

[animator]

Tomasso, my hat's off to you. Well done!

 

[tonyb]

We're going back over some well-travelled territory here, univibe. But what the heck, if we didn't touch upon the same old stuff, we'd have but a handful of threads. And, judging by what scotrace says here, perhaps there is something new to chew over.

I only wish I could concur. I'm not at all disputing his experience with (and assessment of) some of the newer felt, I just haven't seen any myself that would lead me to the same conclusion. I'm talkin' the mass-produced hats now. It is indeed the case that the all-beaver felts Art uses is real nice stuff. I've yet to handle that lightweight felt he now offers, but I've heard good things about it, too, from people whose experience lends some credence to their judgment.

Our old friend Steve Delk introduced me to this notion of "dead" vs. "live" felt. (I don't know that he was the first to come up with the theory, and I never heard him claim he was, but he was the first to bring it to my attention.) The gist of it, as I understand it, is that felt is prone to continue "felting" for some period of time (a few years, anyway) after it is manufactured into a hat hood and then turned into a finished hat. This means the little hair fibers will continue latching on to one another and tightening up. Alas, this contributes to shrinking, which becomes visible by tapered crowns (meaning, in this example, crowns that had been more straight-sided when the hat was made and which took on a tapered profile after getting drenched a few times and/or exposed to heat). But, according to the theory, once felt has been around a few years it has settled into its ways and "dies," and is therefore less likely to shrink. So, it follows that older felt may be more stable (in part, anyway) simply because it IS older. By this thinking, the felt is better than it was when new.

Is there anything to it? Heck, I dunno. I don't doubt it, but I still gotta believe that felt hats in general were better made 50 and 60 and 70 years ago than they have been in more recent times. Really, I've seen WAY too many modern production hats that plainly can't compare to what was the norm back when Grandpa was still a relatively young man. In my experience, the truly good modern production hats are the exception, not the norm.

Still, it's heartening to hear that quality is improving. As a avid hat fancier and collector, I'd be quite enthusiastic about higher quality production lids.

 

[surely]

tonyb, that is a very interesting theory; it makes sense.

When one posts long paragraphs it's difficult to find my place if my eyes leave the screen as often happens. Soo, please break em up.

 

[tonyb]

That's what happens when you're fortunate enough to get old, eh?