Merged Hatter Thread

[ideaguy]

Hatters make hats. The rest of us wear hats. To lose the former deprives the latter of all the combined wisdom, history, kindness, and expertise that goes into the making of a hatter. Stop this palaver. Don't refer to hatters/vendors as "hucksters". That was an arrow looking for a target-IMO.
I can't understand for the life of me why we'd throw the baby out with the
bathwater-seemingly defeats the purpose of offering ALL the opportunity to share and compare with the back-up of several experts to answer our
questions-for free.
I've got to send some hats out for cleaning/blocking. And I'm feeling a bit odd about approaching one of our experts for their help-after all, I only knew about them through this group. And the only way I knew they performed such services was due to the tag after their name.
M

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Don't refer to hatters/vendors as "hucksters".

Nobody did. I said they might have felt that they were being perceived as such, and that this feeling would understandably bother them.

In any case, it's clear from MK's post that he is not calling our hatters hucksters, and that his concern is for preventing real hucksters from coming in and peddling here.


.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Thank you MK.

 

[Mindraker]

{image downloading}
Hope you just remove the link and stay. This forum is the only one where people actually use adverbs lol

 

[drafttek]

We Need Sigs

I'm a big fan of informational signature lines. I don't know everyone here and I read most of the posts. I'd like to see sig lines used as a sort of list of credentials. When someone states something in a post how do I know they're not just talking through their hat? If someone is giving advise on hatmaking, or pen collecting or whatever, I'd like to know where they are coming from, what are there qualifications.

Another forum I visit every night is the AOPA forum (Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association). If someone is spouting "wisdom" it carries more weight with me when I see their qualifications listed in their sig lines. I know someone rated in several aircraft, with higher levels of training, and an Instructor rating isn't likely to be blowing smoke.

On this site there doesn't have to be a "link", but it would sure be nice to know if someone is a professional hatter.

 

[BigSho]

To call a link in a signature an advertisement is just plain ridiculous. The way it was put and the way it was handled was a little "harsh" like Marc said earlier. I don't plan on leaving but I can honestly say that my website has profited from my postings very little if any all. Like MT said when i put my link then I do when I send anything like e-mail, faxes, or anything of that nature I always include the buisness info under my name. Why? Because that is who I am that is my association, and that is my connection to the hatting industry. I will respect the wishes of the website owner but they are out of line and are off putting.

Jeremy

 

[moustache]

Likewise!

Thank you MK.

Well put MK.Very understandable and concise.
There really are no grey areas or ambiguious ideas here.

Black and white.

We are adults.Lets get along. This is a hobby/lifestyle.Not a life or death decision.Not a group of people huddling to stay alive.We are typing at our Internet connected computers.Not trying to find a place to live or food to eat.

Please folks.Lets get past this and enliven the site with more positive discussion.

JD

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Well put MK.Very understandable and concise.
There really are no grey areas or ambiguious ideas here.

Black and white.

We are adults.Lets get along. This is a hobby/lifestyle.Not a life or death decision.Not a group of people huddling to stay alive.We are typing at our Internet connected computers.Not trying to find a place to live or food to eat.

Please folks.Lets get past this and enliven the site with more positive discussion.

JD

AAA-men!

 

[feltfan]

The bottom line is this. We all love hats. We will further the cause through unity and not by being divisive.

This much I agree with. But I believe we are trying to
avoid a divisiveness by retaining our hatters (and hat stores).

My bottom line is that if hatters leave this site,
the Lounge is dramatically impoverished. If something
is causing them to leave, diplomatic action is the right step.

There is no reason to believe Classic Style will bring an
unmanageable influx of custom hatters with deep knowledge
of the trade. I do like the idea of grandfathering the current
hatters, too- they helped make this site what it is.

As they say, it's your site. But many of us contributed many
hours of our lives to create its content.

 

[clevispin]

LOL

Looks like FL has jumped the shark.

Deckard underscores my basic filosophy - understanding creates knowledge.

m

 

[moustache]

Yes...

Looks like FL has jumped the shark.

Deckard underscores my basic filosophy - understanding creates knowledge.

m

But what one does with that knowledge,how he creates action,that is what matters.
Actions speak louder then words.
One can understand or even comprehend something but not agree with it's tenent.

What were we doing before the FL existed??

JD

 

[Art Fawcett]

My better judgement says stay out of this but

Since you asked for my input MT I'll step in.

My perspective is a bit odd as I sit on both sides of this fence. I have been with the Lounge almost since the beginning ( I think around 100 members when I joined) and have seen it grow beyond anyone's wildest expectations. I personally have been and am grateful for the answers, solutions, advice from other hatters and want everyone to stay here and contribute in whatever way we all can as long as it is positive. If that means losing the link to the website, then so be it. It doesn't mean losing the intent of the Lounge.

It DOES make sense to possibly have different titles under your screen name though and I would be supportive of that if MK decides that might be a way to diffuse this. I personally don't have any issues with web links in the signatures but if we step back and take a look at what we all consider "fairness" we could see a potential "unfairness" in the making.

What if, you (generic) as a business person, be it retail, wholesale, hatmaker, etc. take the leap of spending your hard earned bucks into advertising hoping to distinguish yourself from the "others" and doing it in such a way as to further the cause ( read Lounge here) of your passion it would be all good right? Now add the potential of others worldwide coming into that environment and taking advantage of that "forum" with no thought of adding anything to it other than what they can get out of it, would it be fair to the ones who have made a financial and time commitment?

Please know that I am NOT referring to anyone that has been on this journey with us. John, I respect you as a hatter and a person. Steve, dittos for you. I consider both of you friends and want you to stay in the group. Both of you are reasonable adults so you make your own decisions that must be respected, and I do.

I also see the potential for overworked Bartenders. Most of you understand, but not all, that this is NOT a paid position and we all have lives and jobs to worry about. If it all comes about the way it is looking with the new Magazine and the quantum leap in membership I see the need to have steadfast rules that can be pointed to as cause for expulsion. Otherwise we as Bartenders will have an unending job of policing with ambiguities present, leading to more confusion and frankly unnecessary work from all of the jerks that are bound to enter. This decision is only one of the changes that might have to come into effect to keep order in the overall picture of things.

Earlier this summer there was controversy over a potential "hat test" being conducted that elicited some pretty negative responses and I posted that I trusted MK to lead it in the right and fair direction. I stand by those words today in the knowledge that what MK has done in the last 24 hours was done for fairness and for the overall health of the Lounge and also with no personal agenda involved. If any of you have taken this in a personal way I urge you to please look at the "Big Picture" and see where we can adapt instead of bail out. Perhaps assigning different titles can maintain the respect needed to distinguish the weight of our words without more controversy.

Lets give MK time to think about possible alternatives before jumping off that bridge..

 

[MK]

.

When someone states something in a post how do I know they're not just talking through their hat? If someone is giving advise on hatmaking, or pen collecting or whatever, I'd like to know where they are coming from, what are there qualifications.

On this site there doesn't have to be a "link", but it would sure be nice to know if someone is a professional hatter.

Hence the "Vendor" usergroup name.

 

[drafttek]

Hence the "Vendor" usergroup name.

I understand that, but "vendor" is rather broad. Are they a hatter or do they retail hats? There is a difference. I used to sell cars but don't ask me how to fix a transmission. In my post quoted above (the un-edited version) my thoughts on sig lines goes beyond just vendors. It applies to anyone with expertise in a relative endeavor.

 

[MK]

.

Good point.

 

[thefedorastore]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Yada, yada, yada! He did this! I did that! It's your fault! No, it's your fault! I'm gonna take my football and go home!

I've seen this before, elsewhere. Someone makes a decision that someone else doesn't like and they take it as a personal affrontery and then other people jump into the mix and all hell breaks loose.

Let me ask you folks this - IS ANY ONE OF YOU PAYING FOR THE PRIVILEGE, YES PRIVILEGE, OF BEING ON THIS SITE?

No? Than let the man who IS paying call the shots. Hey, this is NOT a democracy; it's a privately owned and operated message board where people come to talk about hats and stuff. That's not to say that MK may or may not be open to suggestions. From what I've seen he sure seems to be. But bottom line is that it is his choice.

Now, PLEASE, stop behaving like two year olds. It tries the patience of others, disses the energy of this site, and casts a dark cloud over what otherwise has been a very happy experience for many.

If you're gonna leave, leave. And, for the sake of others, do so quietly for pete's sake...

Concur

 

[Andykev]

two pennies worth

I shut down another thread in HATS earlier today, as it became a post of one member with a particular propensity to stir the pot.

That said, this thread has been very civil, and in the HATS forum, I thank you all.

Some very good points have been made. This is so indicative of my Political Science studies of the formation of America as a country. The laws and the rules of society EVOLVED to what they are today. The LOUNGE has very humble beginnings, with grand visions and aspirations.

Today, we are on the verge of an entirely new, different, and expanding LOUNGE. This place has been "out of pocket" for MK for YEARS. Despite "behind the scenes" offers for support, MK has declined any monetary assistance.

Now, we have a new era. CLASSIC STYLE. It is right up the alley of what most of us are here for: Vintage Lifestyle.

You can expect the LOUNGE membership to go up a lot!

Now, some vendors have PAID a chunk of money, to be "Advertisers". Yet, anyone, me included, have been able to put a link to their posts directing them to another site. That smacks of "free advertising". And I wonder ( I HAVE NO INFORMATION THIS HAPPENED) if a "paying" vendor voiced some concern such as "why am I paying $$$$ when Joe Blow gets a tag line for free"?

I think, if I can be so bold, that those paying $$ be given special significance, over the "tag line" guys. And if you SELL or MAKE hats, and choose not to advertise, be a gentleman and offer some support for the opportunity to at least have your sites link on the tag line.

At least you are paying, and likely a much smaller amount, than a full blown advertiser.

I can say this because I have sold hats, and have dedicated a percentage to the LOUNGE, as I recognize this is a gem of a place, and money makes it work.

Think PBS. Your pledge is important

 

[thefedorastore]

I have learned much here

As a vendor, I have learned much here as well. From phone calls of members, to emails. I appreciate the support that many of you have given to me as a paying advertiser, and MK hits it on the nose that as a vendor, I for one cannot deny the benefit. I have also learned much about the conduct of the lounge, and you really won't see as much from me in the future. I think Art really is the most professional of vendors here, and I aim to follow his example, walk quietly and carry a big stick. Lastly, each vendor will make their decision about if they are going to stay and how they are going to conduct themselves. Away from the lounge, it can get pretty nasty with gossip and such amongst competing vendors, and it is just plain harmful to everyone. I am opening a retail location this week, much attributable to this gossip from some vendors to suppliers. However, all in all, it was a push I probably needed to get to the next level. Since I will be much busier with the retail, I will of course have less time to stir anyone's pot around here. However, I am always willing to share what I have learned and learn from others.

I believe MK runs a class-act operation here. I believe that it is often abused, and I believe that sometimes it's even hard for the bartenders to keep up with the abuse. Lastly, I will be the first one to admit that I have had a few posts in the beginning which were honking my "vendor" status. As I stated earlier, I think I will now follow Arts lead in behavior on the lounge, whether I pay for advertising or not.

Thanks for the lessons, and the knowledge that is helping me grow socially, economically, and spiritually. Oh, and for those that don't like what I have said here..... Go jump in a lake!

Duane

As a retailer , I received the PM as well . Im not sure how to respond as I enjoy posting on the lounge as well as meeting new customers . I think if it were worded a little less harsh , it would not have been taken as it was by some of the retailers.



Steven
Bencraft Hats
Still here for now!!!

To quote Besdor's remark about the most important thing. That probably says it all right there, for a vendor's benefit, and to make MK's point.

 

[Russ]

What did he say exactly?

As a retailer , I received the PM as well . Im not sure how to respond as I enjoy posting on the lounge as well as meeting new customers . I think if it were worded a little less harsh , it would not have been taken as it was by some of the retailers.

Could somebody who received this PM post it here for the rest of us to see? I suspect the main issue is not whether or not to have a link or even the possibility of paying for a link, but the perceived attitude of the management towards some of our esteemed members. If the tone is anything like the final post in the other "Good bye" thread where the bartender says what he will not allow something in HIS hat section, and then promptly announces the thread is closed, I can see why our hatters would be offended by such a heavy handed attitude.

These guys add spice to the discussions which is in some ways worth more than paid advertising and I am surprised the management is not courting them rather than driving them away. As the administrator of another forum (much smaller than this one, and not related to hats) I would go out of my way to keep the hobby-related professionals happy. But when you start taking on paid sponsors everything changes.

Also, as a forum administrator I have come to realize that one person may own the forum and pay for it, but it still a partnership with the members who pay no money but contribute the content. A forum is not a web magazine with a staff of paid writers. Anybody can start a forum but without members creating the content, the forum will quickly die. A forum administrator ought to listen to what the members are saying. If they want vendor inks in the signature, then the administrator ought to take this seriously and not deal with such a heavy hand. Learn the lesson of Rehoboam.

Anyway, I cannot say more -- and have said too much already -- without actually reading one of those PMs.

 

[majormoore]

We should allow vendor links in the signature sign offs of anyone that makes, sells, or repairs hats. I am learning to make hats, buying equipment, blocks, tools and so forth in hopes of one day being able to even come close to John and Steve and all the other hats that have been on this site, and at sometime in the coming years when I feel that I can make a fedora hat that would meet the needs of this membership, I would like to sign to have in my signature with my link, but that goal is way down the road at this time.

Did the bar keep step in and stop the posting of the hat being built for a member that showed the step by step process of the hat being built, and in the posts it even stated who the hatter was. Should this been allowed?

It is very hard to visit any of the topics here that someone makes the statement "contact so and so for a custom hat" what is the differance of this and a hatter or hat store have a link in its signature sign off, we have the choice to either click on the link or not, no one is making us click on the link.

Mike Moore