Magnoli suit gone wrong - update

[kools]

I really have all the respect in the world for what Indy is trying to do. He is offering a product that so many of us struggle to find easily on our own. Of the three items I purchased from him...two fit perfectly and one did not. Indy did more than his part to try to fix the fitting of the third item.

I do agree, though, that nothing really replicates an original item quite the same as an original.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I'm fortunate to have a great tailor local to me who does amazing work making everything from wide-legged Hollywood-waist trousers to zoot suits and beltback jackets for me. However, he doesn't do shirts, and so I turned to Magnoli Clothiers when I needed new shirts. The very first shirt I ordered was close, but slightly too big in a couple of places; I amended those measurements slightly and now I get a perfect fitting shirt every time (I have six shirts and one pair of amazing 'Leland' shopes from Indy).

As CharlestonBows has pointed out, tailoring is a very precise art. It would take a lot of work to get the finished product correct without actually going to a tailor for the reasons CB pointed out - a lot of trial and error.

I applaud Indy for supplying the service he provides. By the very nature of it being internet-based, it's got its difficulties, but at least he's out there trying and I've always found his service to be efficient and more than helpful.

Please keep us updated with the progress of the rectifications, Daddy-o. I hope it all turns out great in the end.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I just came to the conclusion that nowadays there aint nobody who can make a great looking and great fitting suit like in the 40´s. Sad but I think true.

No no no. Not true in any way. I can't find the pics right now, but benstephens had some trousers made up that were wonderfully done. Perfect reproductions. Of course he had an original pair for the tailor (I think Simpson's?) to copy.

The problem - and it isn't a trivial one - is that to have this work done best, it will be offline by a good tailor. Not just any tailor. And it will no doubt be expensive (that is, what most of us would consider expensive). But it is possible. The skills are out there.

I concur with herringbonekid that to expect a bespoke-quality garment from a non-bespoke service (no-one here is still kidding themselves that online is bespoke, right?) is delusional at best.

bk

 

[Michaelson]

I currently have a custom vest in the works at Indy's establishment, and own a custom 'Hobbs' cloth jacket that he had created from my supplied measurements.

The jacket is a work of art, and fits me perfectly. I do have to say that there was one thing that NEVER crossed my mind when supplying him with my measurements, and that was the fact that I had to 'move' in said jacket. If I'm standing still with my arms to my sides, it's a perfect jacket, and I DO mean perfect. I could pose for a catalog photo shoot!

Problem is, I have to raise my arms sometimes, and that's when I start having problems. I really should have asked for gussets, as anything higher than bending my arms at the elbows, and there's no room to move at all. My sleeves rise up at least 2 to 3 inches above my wrists, and the shoulders lift above my real shoulders by an inch.

I'm not sure what could be done now, but I'm sure if gussets had been installed in the armpit area to allow for high arm lift, nothing would move on the jacket. Hindsight being 20/20......

My fault, entirely, as I never even THOUGHT about that at the time we were discussing the jacket. [huh]

I'm looking forward to the vest, and have been completely satisfied with my experience with him and his firm.

Regards! Michaelson

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Unless the tailor/cutter/clothier can put his tape on you, see the nuances of your body, your shape, and talk with you at length about what it is that you want, one has to make some allowances. If you're looking to have details met, and things done absolutely perfectly, I don't think you're gonna get it online. Outside of generic patterns, etc. it just doesn't work that way.

[snippety snip]

My store offers true custom. It can't be done over the phone, and it can't be done online. Other people's measurements are not usually accepted. This is for the reason illustrated in this thread -- just too much room for error, and errors cost money. Tailors, by their nature, are a bit of a control freak. I put my tape on to your body, and I take about 25 measurements, sometimes more. All told, I spend an average of 45 minutes to an hour with each client discussing modeling, fabrics, the whole shebang. After the client leaves, the real work begins. I spend about an extra hour to two hours going through the measurements, plugging them into the models they ordered, making adjustment after adjustment, based on my personal impressions and observations during the fitting. All told, before the order is even sent to be cut, a total of about 3 hours is spent. After the garment is cut, which takes about 7 days, I sometimes, but not always, opt for a second fitting before finishing and delivery. I usually turn a suit around in about 10 to 12 days, depending on fabric. It's one of the most stressful, but fun, parts of my job.

In short -- it's pretty tough! lol

How much of your work is done in the first few seconds of seeing the new customer? I heard from a tailor once that that first minute or so is spent analysing all the potential "flaws" and nuances of posture etc., partiularly as the customer walks across the room to shake hands, apparently.

A true story or tailors tale?


bk

 

[reetpleat]

Let me ask you this: How is that I've worn the same size of pants for several years now, yet I continually have to alter them? Waist in, waist out, seat out, cuffs down, cuffs up, etc?
Altering pants alone involves a difference of +/-1 inch. That's it!! Two guys may have the same measurements, yet one fits completely different into his pants than another. Sway backs, protruding stomach, high hip bones, etc.
All of these things play into the fit of a garment. I've even noticed that my pants are about 1 inch larger on the left than the right- I'm left-handed ya know....
It is true that the loose cut "baggy" pants of the mid-century are easier to size b/c they basically drape from the waist down, but still, there's more than the waist circumference involved.

Ok, with THAT being said... I hate to be evil, but I looked at the suits offered through Magnoli and I have to say, I was not impressed. I think more than anything it is the fabric and the photos more than the suit itself. Or am I wrong? The photos make the suits just look.... cheap.

Well, I meant fit overall as in cut etc. OF course waist and length will need to be tweaked if it is not just right. If I got a great custom suit, and it fit overall but I had to get the cuff redone, I would be okay with that.

 

[reetpleat]

The custom thing is hard enough, but to do it over the internet is nigh impossible. So props to Indy on being as successful as he is. I've not touch any of the man's work, nor have I done business with him. However, I do know a little something about tailoring.

Unless the tailor/cutter/clothier can put his tape on you, see the nuances of your body, your shape, and talk with you at length about what it is that you want, one has to make some allowances. If you're looking to have details met, and things done absolutely perfectly, I don't think you're gonna get it online. Outside of generic patterns, etc. it just doesn't work that way.

I hate to see so much frustration, and I know that it can be very trying indeed -- if he's anything like the rest of us, it is as much stress for Indy as it is for his customers, I'm sure.



Custom is hard. True custom, that is.

Nowadays every other rag salesman you see offers some form of 'custom'. What it amounts to is give your jacket size, give your waist size, and they order a pre-patterned garment and tailor it to fit. It's glorified off-the-peg; not custom.

My store offers true custom. It can't be done over the phone, and it can't be done online. Other people's measurements are not usually accepted. This is for the reason illustrated in this thread -- just too much room for error, and errors cost money. Tailors, by their nature, are a bit of a control freak. I put my tape on to your body, and I take about 25 measurements, sometimes more. All told, I spend an average of 45 minutes to an hour with each client discussing modeling, fabrics, the whole shebang. After the client leaves, the real work begins. I spend about an extra hour to two hours going through the measurements, plugging them into the models they ordered, making adjustment after adjustment, based on my personal impressions and observations during the fitting. All told, before the order is even sent to be cut, a total of about 3 hours is spent. After the garment is cut, which takes about 7 days, I sometimes, but not always, opt for a second fitting before finishing and delivery. I usually turn a suit around in about 10 to 12 days, depending on fabric. It's one of the most stressful, but fun, parts of my job.

So to answer the question -- making a generic, ready-made pant from a pattern, whether that pattern is based on vintage trousers or not, is fairly simple. Making a truly custom pair of trousers, to individual specifications, is a little more difficult. Through the medium of the internet, it's actually pretty amazing that it can be done with any really consistency.

In short -- it's pretty tough! lol

while I agree that a perfect custom fit is only to be had with multiple measurements and fittings, I am talking about the simple fact that those pants are not anything like a vintage pair. I would rather buy an off the rack pair cut to a vintage pattern than have my privates squeezed by a pair cut to my size, but not cut like a vintage pair.

 

[CharlestonBows]

while I agree that a perfect custom fit is only to be had with multiple measurements and fittings, I am talking about the simple fact that those pants are not anything like a vintage pair. I would rather buy an off the rack pair cut to a vintage pattern than have my privates squeezed by a pair cut to my size, but not cut like a vintage pair.

lol

That's exactly what I mean.

I think I might look into getting some repro trousers done for sale. Hmm...

 

[CharlestonBows]

How much of your work is done in the first few seconds of seeing the new customer? I heard from a tailor once that that first minute or so is spent analysing all the potential "flaws" and nuances of posture etc., partiularly as the customer walks across the room to shake hands, apparently.

A true story or tailors tale?

That's a pretty accurate statement, I'd say. Its why I always ask what the gentleman does for a living, as well. For instance, the style or cut I might get for a corporate lawyer would be a little different than what I would do for some of the college & pro basketball coaches I do.

If you don't consider movement, then you end up as a beautiful mannequin, like Michaelson.

 

[Indy Magnoli]

I don't think anyone has ever called Michaelson beautiful! lol

Kind regards,
Indy

 

[Matt Deckard]

I currently have a custom vest in the works at Indy's establishment, and own a custom 'Hobbs' cloth jacket that he had created from my supplied measurements.

The jacket is a work of art, and fits me perfectly. I do have to say that there was one thing that NEVER crossed my mind when supplying him with my measurements, and that was the fact that I had to 'move' in said jacket. If I'm standing still with my arms to my sides, it's a perfect jacket, and I DO mean perfect. I could pose for a catalog photo shoot!

Problem is, I have to raise my arms sometimes, and that's when I start having problems. I really should have asked for gussets, as anything higher than bending my arms at the elbows, and there's no room to move at all. My sleeves rise up at least 2 to 3 inches above my wrists, and the shoulders lift above my real shoulders by an inch.

I'm not sure what could be done now, but I'm sure if gussets had been installed in the armpit area to allow for high arm lift, nothing would move on the jacket. Hindsight being 20/20......

My fault, entirely, as I never even THOUGHT about that at the time we were discussing the jacket. [huh]

I'm looking forward to the vest, and have been completely satisfied with my experience with him and his firm.

Regards! Michaelson

It's not about gussets, it's about the amount of material around your shoulder blades and the chest. It's the distance from your collar to your armpit and it's all about the armholes, and a proper chest fit is just as important. Even a vest with the material cut too low from the armpit will ride up egregiously when worn.

I just saw Maxwell Demille last night at Memories in Whittier dancing up a storm in a norfolk jacket that was cut just right for movement without gussets.

Here, check out this article. Some guy wrote, has a bit in it about tailoring.

http://www.thecad.net/matt_trots.htm

 

[Matt Deckard]

Pics are always hard to tell from, though I do see how you need more ease in the crotch so you have more comfort when you wear the trousers high. Maybe 2 inches more in the thighs to give it that english drape that comes in at the ankle. You find all different styles from back in the 30's and 40's though the Hollywood trousers you see in movies tend to always have a lot of room for the legs that swings when you walk though doesn't show as too much extra fabric when standing or sitting.

 

[CharlestonBows]

... and a proper chest fit is just as important. ...

Probably the most important. The fit of the chest of a garment should be looked at like the foundation -- it determines how it's going to fit everywhere else, including the shoulders.

 

[Edward]

Given respective travel distances it may not be realistic, but I'd certainly be happy to pay a small fee for a measuring session with Mr Magnoli were he to be attending a FL event I was able to make it to - should take the potential for mistakes in measuring initially out of the loop, no?

 

[luvthatlulu]

Personally, I think it's only fair for you and Indy to agree and understand that, when buying a garment in this manner, you are really only buying a custom-styled garment rather than a custom-fitted garment. And that's part of the problem. My experience is that, whenever you try to modify a manufacturer's existing patterns with extra details and other changes, you're begging for trouble. To do the same without at least one personal fitting is, as someone else said earlier, lunacy. Expecting a perfect custom fit by mail order is an unrealistic expectation at best.

Even the best in the business can only do so much without a personal fitting. In another thread I talked about my experience with Polo Ralph Lauren. Try as I might to get a perfect fit by calling in a stock size with "special requests and personal measurements", every garment came back needing some measure of correcting or re-making. When I finally made the trip to the factory to get personally measured--no more problems and a perfect suit every time!

My advice to anyone who wants to buy custom in this manner is to find a garment that fits you well and send that to the manufacturer for reference. Keep the styling modifications to an absolute minimum and leave the final details (sleeve finishing, working sleeve buttons, cuffing, etc) to a local tailor.

My two cents. Hope everything does eventually work out for you.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Given respective travel distances it may not be realistic, but I'd certainly be happy to pay a small fee for a measuring session with Mr Magnoli were he to be attending a FL event I was able to make it to - should take the potential for mistakes in measuring initially out of the loop, no?

Now THAT's an idea! And, again, try to avoid "screwing the pooch" by requesting custom details later without submitting a well-fitted reference garment to work from.

 

[Mr. Rover]

Yes, the trousers do look like they're bunching at the crease of the thigh. Are the pants pleated? If so, are the pleats deep enough? I've found that even if the pants are high enough, if there isn't enough material you'll still get bunching.
Also, the jacket seems a little long to me, but that may be a matter of posture more than jacket fit. A live tailor would be much better at addressing these issues.
The peak lapels also look distinctly "modern"- they are the same way on my DB suit from Sam's Tailor. For a vintage peak lapel, I tend to see a lower gorge, and if it's a higher gorge, a less steep or floor level peak seem was used.
Compare:

On the bright side, the lapel does seem to have a nice amount of belly, which a lot of people get wrong.

 

[Michaelson]

It's not about gussets, it's about the amount of material around your shoulder blades and the chest. It's the distance from your collar to your armpit and it's all about the armholes, and a proper chest fit is just as important. Even a vest with the material cut too low from the armpit will ride up egregiously when worn.

I just saw Maxwell Demille last night at Memories in Whittier dancing up a storm in a norfolk jacket that was cut just right for movement without gussets.


Well, Matt, what ever the case may be, something's amiss, and I'm sure it was miscommunication on my part.[huh] I would have sent it back to Indy when I got it, but I received it in June as I recall, and our temperatures went up too the century mark here in Tennessee and never came back down until mid September, so I really didn't get to 'road test' the jacket until then. Since then I've tried to make it work......

Oh, I really like your avatar. Next time, though, take aim with both eyes open.

Regards! Michaelson

 

[Matt Deckard]

I only have one good eye.

 

[Michaelson]

Doesn't matter......lol

Regards! Michaelson