Lost manners

[Andykev]

Keep it on or off, but keep on topic please

This topic has been discussed here on the Lounge long ago, and this thread has bounced from social issues, politics, on down to Hitler. (What was that term Zohar, when a post degenerates to Nazi's?).

If you study the old films from the 30-50's, you see that Wingnut's listings of the hat on or off "rules" is right on the money!

Generally,(MEN) wore hats on the subway, in cabs, and in automobiles. They did not on airplanes or long train trips. Public places, in entrances, elevators, at the bank, or in shopping or department stores. Restaurants, at the counter yes, at a table, never. When in a private home, you took off your hat as a courtesy. Hard boiled detectives did not remove their hats when talking to "bad guys" or suspects, in or out of the house (it was a control issue), but they did remove their hats when speaking to women or regular civilians in the home. Wingnut has already addressed the matter of tipping the hat, and so on. Most men meeting on the street never removed their hats, but they usually did in speaking to a woman.

Generally, most WOMEN always wore a hat, at a restaurant, in the buildings, or in church (was required at our church in the "pre1970's era").

I still am amazed that at the ball game, many do not remove their hat for the National Anthem. And I feel it is bad manners to wear your hat sitting in a restaurant....again those ball caps are everywhere. I cringe even more seeing a man in a suit and tie, wearing a stupid ball cap!:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

 

[Feng_Li]

This topic has been discussed here on the Lounge long ago, and this thread has bounced from social issues, politics, on down to Hitler. (What was that term Zohar, when a post degenerates to Nazi's?).

Godwin's Law. When a reference to Nazis is made the thread is said to have been Godwinated.

 

[scotrace]

Godwin's Law goes not apply here, as it was not gratuitous nor used as a gotcha point maker.

So not... Godwintuitous?

 

[akaBruno]

Who's talkin Hitler, anyway? Way off topic.

I'll take my hat off if there's a place to put it, and keep it safe. If not... it's stayin on my noggin.

Hadn't thought about tippin your hat to a lady though. Can't wait to try that one.

 

[Andykev]

This is where the Goodwin's law struck me..

Frederick Chook posted this:


Speaking of which, and to be more than a little cheeky, Aus was at far greater risk than the US in WWII: Hitler had neither ideological nor practical motivation to cross the Atlantic, but Australia had to plan for the possibility that the entire northern half of the country might be occupied. Has your tongue really been threatened with imposition of a foreign government since 1776?

 

[jkingrph]

Wesne, the most obvious answer would be the collection of water etc on your hat as you stated about not wearing muddy shoes inside. I'm guessing that would be the origin of the custom and no, I don't believe it's a hard & fast rule. Again, obviously if it's a restaraunt has a sign, they must care about it and I would follow the mgmt wishes. I don't wear one in a restaraunt anyway. A bar? If it's my local pub with friends gathering I wouldn't feel the need to remove it as it IS a public place and meant to be informal. However, if I went to "Top of the Mark" in SF ( very upside Lounge) I would remove it automatically because of the atmosphere.
As to the Anthem? True, it is not specifically military oriented, but rather community oriented. Each of our Nation's are effectively communities with people uniting for a common purpose. Since we are individuals with differing views on just about everything ( I won't address wars, causes, etc. ) we need SOMETHING to show that unity and the best way is for any nation to have a song we can all identify with. To me, taking my hat off is simply showing my respect and appreciation for that union and for those who came before me creating and strenthening that union. To me, these aren't just words, they are my belief. I disagree with many of my fellow Americans but we are still Americans and as such, family. Family needs to be respected.

Well said.!

 

[Tango Yankee]

It's a Wonderful Life

Wesne, the most obvious answer would be the collection of water etc on your hat as you stated about not wearing muddy shoes inside.

This reminded me of the scene in "It's a Wonderful Life" where Ernie (or was it Bert?) is ushering Jimmy Stewart into his "new" home. It's pouring rain, and Ernie is standing there in the doorway holding the door open with his right hand, palm up, gesturing Mr. Stewart in. Stewart looks down at the palm, and a huge stream of water from his hat pours into it.

I've always like that scene, for some reason.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Mojave Jack]

Wow, I didn't mean to start such an intense discussion...I was simply commenting on what seems like a tradition (or a form of manners, or etiquette, or whatever you call it) that is dying. Since one of the last places where I actually noticed that it was nearly universally observed now doesn't seem to care at all. I wasn't talking about malls and bars, but sit-down restaurants and such.

I was really only commenting on how society as a whole seems to be less and less concerned with the smaller niceties of life, or being considerate to others, etc. (Which, of course, is why the Lounge is such a breath of fresh air...people here *do*, in general, take pride in being considerate and exhibiting good manners and such).

As for removing the hat at the national anthem...I do so, but not to specifically honor "the military" past or present. It's as a sign of respect for the country as a whole (even if I strongly disagree with certain aspects of it at the time), everyone who made it what it is (including civilians and other branches of government, from the founding fathers on down), and one particular WWII vet (my grandfather, USN 1942-1945, Atlantic and Pacific theaters).

I think you're exactly right, FS. It is the increasing isolationism and individualism that is driving folks away from simple consideration and manners. Before TV, DVDs, the internet, Home Shopping Network, etc., people were basically forced to be together for greater periods of time in public places. Courtesy and manners are essential for maintaining any sort of interaction. Everyone knows the rules, and everyone abides by them. If not, that person faced social ramifications, e.g. not getting invited to social gatherings, etc. It's what keeps societies running smoothly.

We still have social conventions, but more and more they have become laws because people say, "hey, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want because you're not the boss of me!" Smoking is an excellent example. It used to be polite to ask others if they minded if you smoked, particularly gentlemen with regard to any ladies present. Now, you have to fight your way through a crowd of smokers at the entrance of every store or business because they believe it's their God-given right to smoke wherever and whenever they choose. So someone gets tired of it, and rather than the smokers having any courtesy and moving away from the doorways, we have to pass a law that bans smoking within 50 feet of a doorway to a public building.

Again, with the National Anthem and other sorts of honors, there is a distinction between military protocol and civilian etiquette. One is a codified set of behavioral standards, and the other is learned behavior reenforced through social mechanisms. The problem is that etiquette is not being taught, nor is it being reenforced through social mechanisms (due to the aforementioned individualism and isolationism). Military protocol is taught in boot camp or officer training schools, and is reenforced daily through interaction with other military members.

It comes down to mutual respect, which is exactly what is lacking in most social circles today.

 

[Dan G]

I'm in complete agreement Jack, I just wish my vernacular would allow me to word such things so beautifully.:eusa_clap

 

[mingoslim]

fftopic:

The thing is, most military actions since WWII (and most before, for that matter) have been less about defending freedom (or any other national value) and more about politics, showing power, gaining advantage A, resource B and ally C.

Amen to that . . .
I love America. There is a lot that is good (even great) about my country, and our way of life . . . And generally, I try to show respect for ALL my Fellow Countrymen and women . . . including those in the military.

.Bartender Edit: A bit too poltical for us, thanks.

 

[mingoslim]

Sorry for my apparent confusion, but when did the Soldier cease to be the working man, whether it be, stateman, lawyer or politician. Or perhaps a logger from the backwoods of North Idaho? Aren't the fighting men and women usually Citizens first?

fftopic: They sure are! No better, and no worse than any of their fellow citizens. Nor any more important than there fellows.

"I try to show respect for all my fellow countrymen and women . . ."

 

[Dan G]

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

 

[staggerwing]

I think you're exactly right, FS. It is the increasing isolationism and individualism that is driving folks away from simple consideration and manners. Before TV, DVDs, the internet, Home Shopping Network, etc., people were basically forced to be together for greater periods of time in public places. Courtesy and manners are essential for maintaining any sort of interaction. Everyone knows the rules, and everyone abides by them. If not, that person faced social ramifications, e.g. not getting invited to social gatherings, etc. It's what keeps societies running smoothly.

We still have social conventions, but more and more they have become laws because people say, "hey, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want because you're not the boss of me!" Smoking is an excellent example. It used to be polite to ask others if they minded if you smoked, particularly gentlemen with regard to any ladies present. Now, you have to fight your way through a crowd of smokers at the entrance of every store or business because they believe it's their God-given right to smoke wherever and whenever they choose. So someone gets tired of it, and rather than the smokers having any courtesy and moving away from the doorways, we have to pass a law that bans smoking within 50 feet of a doorway to a public building.

Again, with the National Anthem and other sorts of honors, there is a distinction between military protocol and civilian etiquette. One is a codified set of behavioral standards, and the other is learned behavior reenforced through social mechanisms. The problem is that etiquette is not being taught, nor is it being reenforced through social mechanisms (due to the aforementioned individualism and isolationism). Military protocol is taught in boot camp or officer training schools, and is reenforced daily through interaction with other military members.

It comes down to mutual respect, which is exactly what is lacking in most social circles today.

I think it's not just the isolationism caused by TV, DVDs, etc, but the "it's cool to be rude" message that permeates so much of popular culture these days. Popular music, video games like Grand Theft Auto, movies and TV reinforce these "values." Nor is it just younger people. Yesterday, a middle-aged woman in a mini van tried to run me off the road. She looked old enough to be from the generation where parents still taught manners (of course even then the lesson didn't take with everyone).

 

[Spitfire]

Why do "all stand up"?

Dont you stand up when the national anthem is played?

 

[HDRnR]

I just think it feels strange to have a hat on indoors...gives me a wierd feeling. Unless I am at an indoor rodeo in a big arena for some reason that doesnt bother me.

 

[TaxMan1]

Dont you stand up when the national anthem is played?

Yes. And take my hat off. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. It sounded like you said "all stand" but some don't take their hat off, which sounded contraditory to me.

 

[HDRnR]

Bartender Edit: HDRnR: Hang out a bit, get a feel for the place. You'll quickly see we try and maintain a lot more civil tone in posting.

~ Scotrace

 

[Spitfire]

Yes. And take my hat off. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. It sounded like you said "all stand" but some don't take their hat off, which sounded contraditory to me.

That was exactly what I said. Like it has been stated in some of the other posts here: A lot of people - especially sportfans - doesn't even remove their "stupid" ballcaps or fancaps/hats, when the danish national anthem is played. But they do stand up - and they sing their hearts out!!!

 

[BegintheBeguine]

Before my hubby was in the military my dad and I had to ask him to remove his baseball cap while at the table. Elsewhere in the Lounge I posted we would rather see his greasy nasty hair than a cap on at the table. Now of course he's a stickler for hat etiquitte and thinks it was quite silly and childish of him to protest the 'squares' rules' by always keeping a cap on.

 

[John in Covina]

Let me ask this... Who am I offending by not removing my hat? I'm offended by someone asking me to remove my hat.

********

Here is the difference, in an area where the culture has set common values and mores, there is a tendency to have set rules that are observed, and in those rules are what can be called public decorum. It is a cart before the horse situation as to the attitudes for behavior, they may see it as being respectful of others where as some see it only as interference..

On the part of the place of business or institution, they get to set the rules of expected conduct in their venue, it is their place. Much like a high end restaurant may have a policy of tie and jacket.

Now, you may not agree with their policy but it is their place and their policy. The same holds true if you had a place, then you get to set policy, you could put up a rule where everyone must wear a hat.

What you can consider though is the idea that although you are the center of your own universe, there are others that inhabit the place and sometimes in deference to their wants, needs and wishes, you may consider others before self in some situations. A simple lesson that for many is life changing.

Best regards,