Lost manners

[Frederick Chook]

I'm going to be offensive for a second here, but by not removing the hat and showing signs of respect during the anthem, you're insulting every man and woman that served in the military. To me, that's akin to saying all the folks that gave something up (their life, time, family, whatever) did so in vain.

See, I really don't see it that way. Surely that relies on the song, the nation and the troops being the same entity, rather than the song merely celebrating the nation and the troops merely being people who believed in, and worked for, the nation. All three of those things change their nature over time, too (here in Aus, we've only been a nation for a little over a hundred years, remember, and we're still technically under the British Crown, so there's ongoing debate about precisely who and what the nation represents; the indigenous population, European migrants, worldwide migrants or a blending of some or all of the above - as well as whether we should keep the current anthem or instead use a traditional folk song.)

Basically, what I'm saying is: in my mind, the nation does not equal the armed forces, or vice versa.

I may disagree with my government (and I frequently do) but without folks that died to give me the right to be an outspoken shrew, I'd of had my tongue cut out a long time ago, and for that, I'm eternally grateful that the veterans have done their duty, and a moment of inconvenience is a small price to pay for that (for the record, I may not HAVE to remove my hat under social dictates due to my sex, I choose to).

The thing is, most military actions since WWII (and most before, for that matter) have been less about defending freedom (or any other national value) and more about politics, showing power, gaining advantage A, resource B and ally C. Take WWI: the Central Powers defeat the Allies, one group of European empires gains territory and influence instead of another group of (slightly more democratic but still don't even have universal suffrage yet) European empires. Big deal. Plus, WWII would probably have been prevented. Speaking of which, and to be more than a little cheeky, Aus was at far greater risk than the US in WWII: Hitler had neither ideological nor practical motivation to cross the Atlantic, but Australia had to plan for the possibility that the entire northern half of the country might be occupied. Has your tongue really been threatened with imposition of a foreign government since 1776? I think threats to, and defence of, freedom occur in the peaceful realms of the legislatory and judiciary, in civil movements, workplace relations and local politics. Do you take off your hat for 'We Shall Overcome' or even, gasp, 'The Red Flag'? (I admit that socialism has been far more influential in the creation of the modern nation here than there, yes)

 

[The Wingnut]

I used to remove my hat when entering buildings without ever being taught to do so. I'd just heard once as a kid that it was the polite thing to do, so when I had a hat on, I did it.

...then I joined the Air Force. You don't wear a hat indoors, and you don't go without one outdoors. No two ways about it, unless you're on a flightline and the hat is an induction hazard. You can get your rear end chewed right off for non-compliance on that one.

Now it's habit.

As for showing respect (as opposed to pure tradition), hats are meant as protection from the elements. They're to be worn outside, sheilding the wearer from the sun, the rain, the wind, the cold, the heat...outside. Wearing one inside implies that the wearer sees no difference between the dirty, hot or cold, windy, or rainy outdoors and the interior of the building they're in...a sign of disrespect.

...and long before I joined the military, I'd yell at people walking around during the national anthem. Never mind their hats. Show some pride in your nation, show some recognition that you're glad to live where you do, show that even though you may not like some of the history that got your country where it is today, you're glad to be a member of your nation and you recognize its sovereignty.

Fred, war at its basic source has always been about power and resources. Anyone who tells you differently has stars in their eyes. This discussion isn't about war, nationalisim, who was more in harm's way during a given war and who wasn't...it's about polite society.

 

[Archie Goodwin]

Obviously, if a particular establishment has a special rule, you go with that rule, or you leave the establishmnet. That said, I thought wearing a hat in a bar was acceptable. I am even pretty sure I read something along those lines in the hat etiqutte thread.

 

[TaxMan1]

Maybe it is so in US. But the national anthem is in no way connected to the armed forces or those who served here in Denmark. It is everybodys song.
If it is anything, it's connected to soccermatches.
All stand up - some take of their crazy soccerfanhats and caps - some doesn't. But everybody is singing. Loud!!!!

Why do "all stand up"?

 

[Frederick Chook]

Obviously, if a particular establishment has a special rule, you go with that rule, or you leave the establishmnet. That said, I thought wearing a hat in a bar was acceptable. I am even pretty sure I read something along those lines in the hat etiqutte thread.

Yeah, look at any impressionist painting of a bar or cabaret. That's why people liked those place - they're informal, they could just walk in, have a drink, have some fun, walk out again.

 

[Wesne]

Does anyone know how the "hats off indoors" rule got its start? Was/is there some practical reason for it? What I'm getting at is, I can see why it's bad manners to pass gas around other people or wear muddy shoes into someone's house, but I can't really understand why wearing a hat indoors is in itself offensive.

That said, I don't generally wear a hat indoors. For me a hat is an outer garment, like a jacket and gloves, and I don't wear it indoors for the same reason I take off my coat and gloves indoors. I may wear it inside a store or some other place I have gone into from outside for a short time, though. I don't automatically take it off the second I walk through a door. If I'm going to be there longer than "just passing through" I'll take it off, though.

I'm not emotionally attached to this issue; I'm just curious.

 

[The Wingnut]

As I said previously:

As for showing respect (as opposed to pure tradition), hats are meant as protection from the elements. They're to be worn outside, sheilding the wearer from the sun, the rain, the wind, the cold, the heat...outside. Wearing one inside implies that the wearer sees no difference between the dirty, hot or cold, windy, or rainy outdoors and the interior of the building they're in...a sign of disrespect.

 

[AdmiralTofu]

I generally take my hat off indoors, unless I'm either, as you said, Wesne, "just passing through," or the place is a hub of people that's essentially as good as outdoors -- say a mall or some place like that.

 

[nightandthecity]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say pffft.....we're not talking places of worship or anything here, we're talking boring public buildings that hundreds of anonymous people pass through every day. Which is ruder, not removing an arbitrary garment to do so, or singling out a stranger and treating them like they're sub-human and not protected by usual rules of behaviour because they don't follow one minor custom?

I think you have got to the heart of the matter here. Let me join you in saying pffft

pffft!!

 

[jpdesign]

Hats at the bar - wear your hat itf you are at the bar, not if you sit at a table.

tipping hats to women - This is a matter that has been in my mind lately. I have a sister who is 9 years younger than me, she is at Texas Tech University at the moment. While I was in college I had several female friends who were raped at some point in time, many by people they thought were friends. I found out that one in three women has been raped. One guy did try to force himself on my sister b ut she was able to fight him off.
The point - If men still had the respect for women that was shown by tipoping hats would this number be so high. Before women were seen as equals to men, they were seen as something precious, something that needed protecting. Taking your hat off in the presence of a woman was a sign of humbling yourself before the fairer sex. It was a sign of respect, and that you were one that would protect, maybe not that specific woman, but women in general. Rather than women's liberation bringing the woman "up" to the status of a man, it has taken them off the pedistool and Lowered them to the status of a man. I feel this is a key factor in the increase of rape, of husband killing their wives, of divorce, of many ailments to society that have increased over the last 40 years.

The loss of common courtesy is the underlying factor that is ruining this country. What I have just outlined if one example, but there are many others. Whe need to get our manners back, or things in this country will only get worse.

Jimmy

 

[Wesne]

As I said previously:

Missed that the first time around, sorry about that. Your explanation sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Wesne, the most obvious answer would be the collection of water etc on your hat as you stated about not wearing muddy shoes inside. I'm guessing that would be the origin of the custom and no, I don't believe it's a hard & fast rule. Again, obviously if it's a restaraunt has a sign, they must care about it and I would follow the mgmt wishes. I don't wear one in a restaraunt anyway. A bar? If it's my local pub with friends gathering I wouldn't feel the need to remove it as it IS a public place and meant to be informal. However, if I went to "Top of the Mark" in SF ( very upside Lounge) I would remove it automatically because of the atmosphere.
As to the Anthem? True, it is not specifically military oriented, but rather community oriented. Each of our Nation's are effectively communities with people uniting for a common purpose. Since we are individuals with differing views on just about everything ( I won't address wars, causes, etc. ) we need SOMETHING to show that unity and the best way is for any nation to have a song we can all identify with. To me, taking my hat off is simply showing my respect and appreciation for that union and for those who came before me creating and strenthening that union. To me, these aren't just words, they are my belief. I disagree with many of my fellow Americans but we are still Americans and as such, family. Family needs to be respected.

 

[nightandthecity]

Hats at the bar - wear your hat itf you are at the bar, not if you sit at a table.

tipping hats to women - This is a matter that has been in my mind lately. I have a sister who is 9 years younger than me, she is at Texas Tech University at the moment. While I was in college I had several female friends who were raped at some point in time, many by people they thought were friends. I found out that one in three women has been raped. One guy did try to force himself on my sister b ut she was able to fight him off.
The point - If men still had the respect for women that was shown by tipoping hats would this number be so high. Before women were seen as equals to men, they were seen as something precious, something that needed protecting. Taking your hat off in the presence of a woman was a sign of humbling yourself before the fairer sex. It was a sign of respect, and that you were one that would protect, maybe not that specific woman, but women in general. Rather than women's liberation bringing the woman "up" to the status of a man, it has taken them off the pedistool and Lowered them to the status of a man. I feel this is a key factor in the increase of rape, of husband killing their wives, of divorce, of many ailments to society that have increased over the last 40 years.

The loss of common courtesy is the underlying factor that is ruining this country. What I have just outlined if one example, but there are many others. Whe need to get our manners back, or things in this country will only get worse.

Jimmy

sexual behaviour is obviously a difficult area to research, but what work has been done suggests that what we now call date rape (and a lot of other things including resorting to prostitutes, homosexuality bewteen heterosexuals, domestic violence and child abuse) were actually a lot commoner before "womens lib" - these are areas of life where there has been real progress.

Anyway, back to hats....

 

[akaBruno]

Bruno, I'm trying to read where someone here has offended you in this post & I'll be darned if I can see where your aggressive attitude and swearing would be warranted. Is this a particularly sensative "hot button" for you or are you just rude by nature?

In no way have I been offended here. If I've offended anyone I apologize. And, yes... I am rude by nature.

 

[Frederick Chook]

Before women were seen as equals to men, they were seen as something precious, something that needed protecting. Taking your hat off in the presence of a woman was a sign of humbling yourself before the fairer sex. It was a sign of respect, and that you were one that would protect, maybe not that specific woman, but women in general. Rather than women's liberation bringing the woman "up" to the status of a man, it has taken them off the pedistool and Lowered them to the status of a man. I feel this is a key factor in the increase of rape, of husband killing their wives, of divorce, of many ailments to society that have increased over the last 40 years.

The loss of common courtesy is the underlying factor that is ruining this country. What I have just outlined if one example, but there are many others. Whe need to get our manners back, or things in this country will only get worse.

Jimmy

Hmmm, not so sure there. I'd ask for statistics about incidences of rape now versus then, but I'm just not sure they'd be reliable if they existed - that such crimes would have been reported or acknowledged. Now a woman can TELL YOU if she's been assaulted, rather than it being a shadowy 'fate worse than death', as well as her being less likely to be disbelieved - consider the relative recentness of acceptance that a man can rape his wife, rather than her body being his rightful property.

Remember also that feminism is not a recent ideology - it's as old as liberalism itself, and argues that liberal values apply equally to women as men. Women haven't been devalued: if anything, they're no longer expected to live up to an impossible, unreachable ideal and punished if they reveal themselves to just be people. (I say 'no longer', but that's not really true - the ideal has multiplied and been heavily sexualised, but it carries on - consider that women are more likely to receive harsh punishments than men for the same crimes, for example)

Less social courtesy isn't the cause of modernity's problems, it's just another symptom. So what is the cause? Who knows. Lots of things. Not excluding the fact that when we look at the past, we tend to focus more on the well-off. The down-and-outs don't get into the history books or the Hollywood glamourfests, so the past becomes idealised. Walk down the wrong streets in any Golden Age and things are just as bad as they look now.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Wow, I didn't mean to start such an intense discussion...I was simply commenting on what seems like a tradition (or a form of manners, or etiquette, or whatever you call it) that is dying. Since one of the last places where I actually noticed that it was nearly universally observed now doesn't seem to care at all. I wasn't talking about malls and bars, but sit-down restaurants and such.

I was really only commenting on how society as a whole seems to be less and less concerned with the smaller niceties of life, or being considerate to others, etc. (Which, of course, is why the Lounge is such a breath of fresh air...people here *do*, in general, take pride in being considerate and exhibiting good manners and such).

As for removing the hat at the national anthem...I do so, but not to specifically honor "the military" past or present. It's as a sign of respect for the country as a whole (even if I strongly disagree with certain aspects of it at the time), everyone who made it what it is (including civilians and other branches of government, from the founding fathers on down), and one particular WWII vet (my grandfather, USN 1942-1945, Atlantic and Pacific theaters).

 

[plain old dave]

As I am a Navy vet, I have a little different aproach to the indoor-outdoor issue.

1) A hat is to be worn outdoors, or in a Wide Open Space (i.e. hangar bay).

2) With the following exceptions, a hat is not worn indoors.

a) When entering the bridge of a man-of-war
b) Watchstanders actually on duty (those not directly involved with the operation of the mess decks/galley uncover on entering the mess decks).

The dining area exception is an ancient Naval tradition; you uncover when entering the mess decks in respect of the dead that passed on in times past. Historically, the mess decks on a man-of-war were where battle casualties were treated.

My civilian rules:

1) Wear it outdoors, when shopping, or in other Wide Open Spaces.

2) Remove it in Church, someone's home or in a dining facility as a sign of respect.

 

[The Wingnut]

Maybe we're due a review of the 'rules'(probably better described as the customs).

Seated at a counter in a dining atmosphere: Leave your hat on. You're passing through, you're at the counter because your meal is going to be quick. You don't have a place for your hat.

At a booth in a dining atmosphere: Take off your hat and coat. You'll be here a while.

In an elevator: Leave it on, unless, as mentioned before, a woman enters.

Covered areas and indoor public 'common' areas: Leave it on. Again, you're passing through. High ceilings and heavy foot traffic usually means you're on the move.

In a private residence, dwelling area, office, courtroom, or other similar areas: You're not outdoors, there are no elements, you're in an inner sanctum. Take your hat off.

Crossing paths with another man: Pull on the front edge of the brim as an acknowledgement. Make it casual enough to not seem affected and significant enough to seem as if it's not too much effort.

Crossing paths with a woman: Lift the hat momentarily off your head in recognition. Tilt it forward.

Stopping to talk with someone: Make your greeting / introduction, then remove your hat, regardless of location.

National anthems: Stand if seated and remove your hat. If a member of the nation of whose anthem is being played, render the proper salute. For U.S. citizens, this is placing the hand over the heart. Prior to the NSDAP adopting the roman salute, U.S. citizens would raise their right hand, palm upward, toward the flag. It was changed for obvious reasons.

Passing funerals: Stop to remove your hat. Replace it and continue activity after the hearse / casket has passed.

I'm sure there are more, and some are obviously archaic / obscure enough that they wouldn't have meaning in today's society. However, the basics are there, and were prevalent enough in very recent history to still hold some meaning. The entire point of removing / proper handling of one's headwear is to show respect.

 

[akaBruno]

It's not just manners that have changed. It's business too. You just don't see a lot of Hat Check Girls, these days.

 

[scotrace]

Wingnut: Brilliant, my good man! Well done. I think I will bookmark your post as an individual entry to pull out for future wielding when this comes up again (as it does, rightfully so).