Looking Back Into History

[Twitch]

I've been bothered by the way people peceive the WW II era in our history.
As many of you know I have interviewed military veterans especially fighter aces and written many an article on air combat.

Today I see folks seemingly thinking of WW II as almost ancient, perhaps they way I perceive the American Civil War. With film and voice recoring technology we have a far better record from the participants of WW II than we do the Civil War of even WW I for that matter.

What bugs me is people looking back into a era such as WW II and continually applying modern ethics, values and perspectives which unendingly conflict with 1943 peoples' from anywhere in the world. They don't understand the logic the Japanese used to conceive of the Pearl Harbor attack or later sucidal kamikazes as viable options.

They don't understand and appreciate the huge numbers of men at arms around the globe then. Where we have lost 3-4000 in Iraq in any one minute that many people were killed daily in WW II during battles.

They keep imagining that the German people coulda/shoulda been able to see through Hitler's propaganda but don't bother to immerse themselves in the world of the 1930s and see things from a different perspective. They imagine that somehow captured Jews should have been able to mount a concerted offensive against their captors.

They can't imagine how people felt about the war, being tired of it on the home front wanting their loved ones home ASAP, just like today. They can't imagine the feelings of the men in uniform awaiting the upcomimg invasion of Japan with less than optimistic probabilities.

They find it hard to believe that once commited to war the US tooled up into a manufacturing frenzy that has never been duplicated. There was no whining about women working, wetlands, air pollution, having factories located in certain zones or noise or traffic resulting from them.

A lot of things are revisionist in nature and perveyors putting the new spin on events of the era are completely false. As example it's chic to oppose the A-Bombs in hindsight but at the time the vast majority of Americans were relieved that they ended the war whatever the future consequences.

Anyhow I've rambled long enough. Don't want to offend anyone of start any conflicts but just been chewing this stuff over for some years now and guess I am thoroughly dismayed with most of today's people's perspectives on world history.

So I suppose if they can't understand why the Nazi movement was successful they can't understand why we like vintage cars, movies or just hats!

 

[scotrace]

Very true. One can't view the circumstances of 1939 through 2007 lenses. It is equally impossible to view the completely unknowable world of 2107 given the information and prevailing winds of today.

I like what Michael Crichton wrote comparing the realities of today vs what our ancestors in 1900 would have predicted. They would have wondered how we would be dealing with all the dead horses and equine dung brought about by expanding human populations, and how to dispose of all the coal soot from all those furnaces. Instead, we fuss with providing fat enough pipes for the volume of email.

Viewed through our own perspective and wisdom of hindsight, we can find Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington to be deeply flawed men. They were products of their time.

 

[sweetfrancaise]

I can see where you're coming from, certainly. And I agree--we shouldn't look at these events through our 2007 perspectives. It's impossible, though. History is hindsight and revision--look at how textbooks have been written and rewritten to adequately describe the past. Despite how much factual evidence there is for WWII, there has to be someone to interpret it all. And that requires a human, with all the emotions possible to tie up in those events. We will never have a perfect understanding of what happened then.

What I think is most important to remember, however, that everyone seems to forget, is how bloody recent the war was. There are still veterans alive who were there, so how can we expect to have a distanced, scientific idea of how the war "really happened"? It was only sixty-odd years ago. Too soon to be able to have a fine grasp on it. Far too soon.

Anyway, my two cents.

 

[AmateisGal]

Emotions still run very high over this war in many places, I think. When my brother visited Japan while in college, he said that the older generation (the WW2 generation) looked at him and his friends, i.e. Americans, with distrust, but the younger generation embraced them with open arms. And in the same way, some of the WW2 generation here still has very strong emotions toward the Germans and the Japanese. My co-worker's grandmother still calls them "Japs" and has an intense hatred for them.

In the whole scope of history, it really was not long ago at all. And there's still so much to learn from it, still so many topics unexplored. It was such a huge global event that we'll probably never know everything that happened.

I've gotten into more than one argument with people over the dropping of the atomic bomb and other aspects of the war and these people continue to look at it with the 21st century mindset. It's incredibly frustrating.

 

[Twitch]

I have another wacky idea about clothing. We today talk about how many of us feel disgusted that people dress down taking casual to the extreme and long for the days when folks all dressed up most of the time....except that was never.

We will find more era photos of fedoras on the heads of men WITHOUT suits. Womens simple or work dresses were everyday plain. My parents and my Grandmother talked about men in their families wearing a shirt 2 days if they hadn't perspired it up too bad. My Dad being from poor Arkansas wore the same clothes more often than that. In the 30s folks had a "go to meeting" suit- maybe a hand me down- and a couple work shirts and pants.

And much of the time taking photographs was a big deal so the participants dressed up.

My point to all this is there WAS NO casual clothing available to most people in middle class or under. A casual look was a man without a tie dress shirt sleeves rolled up. There was no industry and distributuion network of "sports casuals."

Even by the 50s when there was a greater depth in casual clothes my folks said things like, " yeah and they cost money we often didn't have!"

So we're looking at a considerable portion of people that didn't have but a meager casual wardrobe because for the upper middle class and under work clothes were paramount.

Casual clothes for my folks were worn work clothes a bit to shabby for work use.

All this has nothing to do with relaxed dress rules today but the fact that we have disposable income for all types of clothes our parents/grandparents didn't is something. Also relative cost has plummeted with offshore sweatshop labor producing myriad clothing too.

So overall I'd have to say we generally are wrong if we look at selected photos and conclude that "everybody dressed up most of the time."

If we go farther back to the old west we see how the 1950s western TV shows and movies perverted the era into a "gunfight on every street." atmosphere when in fact the law and courts were highly effective in disputed of all kind. Also there was no TV wardrobe where you either dressed like a gunslinger or a store clerk. A whole generation was led astray for about 30 years believing in cowboys and gunfighters as the motivating factor.

So see what I mean? My pet peeve is WW II but other eras are misrepresented by visual media like TV and cinema too.:rage:

 

[Ecuador Jim]

Emotions still run very high over this war in many places, I think. When my brother visited Japan while in college, he said that the older generation (the WW2 generation) looked at him and his friends, i.e. Americans, with distrust, but the younger generation embraced them with open arms.

I spent a fascinating evening once in Yokosuka, Japan with a submarine vet from WWII. I had wandered into a Japanese neighborhood, and stopped in to a tiny neighborhood bar. I knew enough Japanese to order a beer and some yakisoba, and an older gentleman started speaking to me in broken english.

Over the next couple of hours, he retold his story about being in the Japanese navy hunting US ships across the Pacific. His perspective was interesting, and I learned a lot about how the "average" Japanese citizen felt about the war.

 

[A.R. McVintage]

Twitch, this is exactly like what an art history teacher of mine once said. She was a great gal (and tiny--she even was the suited Mickey at Disneyland for a number of years) and always said that to look at art, and to understand its meaning, you have to look at it from the perspective of the time it was created. I.e., if you're a modern "church-hating" atheist (just as an example, so no people scream how offended they are), you can only judge a painting of a Madonna on how it would have impacted a 16th century Catholic at the time--not how it annoys you today.

 

[Twitch]

Hey Ecuador what number I-boat was he on? Did he say? They had an interesting variety of boats besides attack subs. There were a lot of huge supply subs and a few big I-boats that had seaplanes in special sealed containers.

Check out this site for more info than you can imagine http://www.combinedfleet.com/

A.R. art is probably a great comparison. If you're looking at what WAS in 50 years ago it is probably way different that what IS in today.

 

[The Wingnut]

Excellent points, Twitch, on clothing. Consider that most people not only couldn't afford much more than a few suits for business and one good one for church or special occasions, but they probably didn't think much outside of that box. Dressing casual didn't really even occur to anyone at the time, it's simply that in a relaxed atmosphere, one wouldn't bother with the rigamarole of a tie and all the other accoutrements associated with work or going out in public.

A lot of things are revisionist in nature and perveyors putting the new spin on events of the era are completely false. As example it's chic to oppose the A-Bombs in hindsight but at the time the vast majority of Americans were relieved that they ended the war whatever the future consequences.

I'm only going to slightly open a can of worms and play it into another topic mentioned above: It's interesting how in hindsight we take the most spectacular of events or phenomenae and gloss them over everything else, sort of paint the whole era with the same brush; every guy had a pinstripe double breasted suit, for example. People talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki all the time, forgetting about Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, and Kobe. Firebombing caused far greater destruction and suffering than the atomic bombs...but it's easier to remember and vilify atomic warfare because it's a higher-profile event, due to the fact that it was a first in warfare, it ended the war, and was so spectacular in its nature. I take great issue with entire eras being formed into a silly stereotype, as popular culture and even most people's perceptions have a habit of doing. People just look at it as THE PAST®™©, instead of everyday life with all of its infinite variety, having only major differences with technology, styles and some cultural differences. Life then was as varied and random as it is now.

 

[Twitch]

Yes, we are the same- people with similar desires, loves, hates, hopes, and asperations. We'll hear someone damning the use of A-bombs but not consider that the situation and feeling of the country and military personnel is exactly the same! "Get this over with now, bring our guys home!"

If is so OK to cheer for that now it most certainly was in 1945. I've never heard of any veteran that was not just apprehensive but completely accepting that they probably would not live through an invasion of Japan.

All we have to do is recognize our feelings today and we can related to how everyone felt in 1945.

 

[AmateisGal]

I spent a fascinating evening once in Yokosuka, Japan with a submarine vet from WWII. I had wandered into a Japanese neighborhood, and stopped in to a tiny neighborhood bar. I knew enough Japanese to order a beer and some yakisoba, and an older gentleman started speaking to me in broken english.

Over the next couple of hours, he retold his story about being in the Japanese navy hunting US ships across the Pacific. His perspective was interesting, and I learned a lot about how the "average" Japanese citizen felt about the war.

I would be very interested to hear what he said.

 

[AmateisGal]

People talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki all the time, forgetting about Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, and Kobe. Firebombing caused far greater destruction and suffering than the atomic bombs...but it's easier to remember and vilify atomic warfare because it's a higher-profile event, due to the fact that it was a first in warfare, it ended the war, and was so spectacular in its nature.

Exactly. In my local paper today there is a letter to the editor about the death of the pilot of the Enola Gay and how he wanted a simple gravestone, nothing elaborate, so that the "weirdos" of today wouldn't desecrate it. Of course, the whole topic of the atomic bomb has come up in the comments section and how the Japanese were making diplomatic efforts to end the war before we dropped the bomb. I anticipate a plethora of comments to come, and of course, no one is going to mention the firebombing of Hamburg, Dresden, etc. It's been forgotten by a majority of the populace.

 

[Eliza]

So we're looking at a considerable portion of people that didn't have but a meager casual wardrobe because for the upper middle class and under work clothes were paramount.

This is my predicament. I cannot afford multiple wardrobes, so my clothes are geared towards my work.....which makes the clothes that I have too dressy for casual affairs (ie. barbeques, hiking, etc.).

 

[reetpleat]

Very true. One can't view the circumstances of 1939 through 2007 lenses. It is equally impossible to view the completely unknowable world of 2107 given the information and prevailing winds of today.

I like what Michael Crichton wrote comparing the realities of today vs what our ancestors in 1900 would have predicted. They would have wondered how we would be dealing with all the dead horses and equine dung brought about by expanding human populations, and how to dispose of all the coal soot from all those furnaces. Instead, we fuss with providing fat enough pipes for the volume of email.

Viewed through our own perspective and wisdom of hindsight, we can find Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington to be deeply flawed men. They were products of their time.

On the one hand, we can not completely judge then by modern standards. BUt I see no reason not to apply modern standards by comparison. I mean, is it not reasonable to say that slavery was messed up and thank god we gave it up?

Another issue is that our whole culture is based on a certain illusion that has alway been enforced. History is an important part of it. The portrayal of the axis as evil made it easeir to kill them, and continue US interervention to this day than to place a certain blame on US and British activity before the war towards Germany and Japan (I feel like an idiot for just finding out from my dad about the blockade of japan) It was all about control of trade and raw materialis as far as I am concerned.

I think people do need to know more about the facts.

But here is the question. Let's take the bomb for example. Are you complaining that modenr people can not comprehend why people back then would support it, or that people today can't conceive the fact that it may have not been necessery, especially both. (Why not have negotiated a truce instead of insisting on complete surrender and the removal of the emporer?)

SO, while you seem to suggest the former, I go with the latter. Seems to me that while people today do not approve of dropping atom bombs, there are few Amereicans that would argue it was a war crime and a crime against humanity and should have never been done and was not necessery.

 

[reetpleat]

Emotions still run very high over this war in many places, I think. When my brother visited Japan while in college, he said that the older generation (the WW2 generation) looked at him and his friends, i.e. Americans, with distrust, but the younger generation embraced them with open arms. And in the same way, some of the WW2 generation here still has very strong emotions toward the Germans and the Japanese. My co-worker's grandmother still calls them "Japs" and has an intense hatred for them.

In the whole scope of history, it really was not long ago at all. And there's still so much to learn from it, still so many topics unexplored. It was such a huge global event that we'll probably never know everything that happened.

I've gotten into more than one argument with people over the dropping of the atomic bomb and other aspects of the war and these people continue to look at it with the 21st century mindset. It's incredibly frustrating.

Just curious, do you mean you feel it was necessery or wasn't to drop the bomb. I won't argue, but I was curious. I am surprised you would find many people to argue against it. Seems most Americans still believe it was necessery.

Speaking of recent history, In Viet Nam, they seem to have been quite quick to forgive an dofget. They wre quite hospitibal to me in NOrth and SOuth fifteen years ago. They actually run tours for French, American and Japanese tourists who were there for the respective wars. They seem to be a very forgiving people. Speaking of which, I was talking with my dad the other day. I read a book on wwII phillipines and was quite surprised to see how supportive they were of the US troops over the Japanese. WHile the japanese were brutal, wasn't it only twenty years or so since the US brtutally put down Their own rebellion? Anyone have more info. The general in charge was a well known name.

 

[reetpleat]

Yes, we are the same- people with similar desires, loves, hates, hopes, and asperations. We'll hear someone damning the use of A-bombs but not consider that the situation and feeling of the country and military personnel is exactly the same! "Get this over with now, bring our guys home!"

If is so OK to cheer for that now it most certainly was in 1945. I've never heard of any veteran that was not just apprehensive but completely accepting that they probably would not live through an invasion of Japan.

All we have to do is recognize our feelings today and we can related to how everyone felt in 1945.

I completely disagree. YOu can't just look at how people felt. Otherwise we could excuse the holocaust by saying, we have to consider how most germans felt. "We are tired of the jews and their manipulation and exploitation. Let's get this over now."

It was our leaders that got us there and also manipulated public opinion to support certain choices. We elected them, and went along with it so we are also somewhat responsible. We must look at the facts, and decide what was going on and weather it was right or wrong. We can not just excuse anything because people felt like it. Call it revisionist, but I consider it the only way to approach the past. Look at the facts, and apply our modern sense of morality. We can excuse people somewhat, but we must still call right right and wrong wrong, and good ideas that and mistakes just that.

 

[AmateisGal]

Just curious, do you mean you feel it was necessery or wasn't to drop the bomb. I won't argue, but I was curious. I am surprised you would find many people to argue against it. Seems most Americans still believe it was necessery.

I believe it was necessary, especially after talking to WW2 veterans who believe that there was no stopping the Japanese except by drastic measures.

And yes, I have argued with a few people who believe it was completely and totally wrong to drop the bomb. Telling them about kamikazes and Japanese militarism had no affect on their argument at all. They still believed the U.S. was a horrible monster for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do I wish we wouldn't have dropped the bomb and we could have ended the war without such devastation? You bet I do.

I took a class in grad school on Japanese history. Talk about eye-opening. If people understood their period of militarism that led to their invasion of China and their quest to colonize, they would better understand, I think, why the Japanese acted the way they did.

 

[Teekay44]

Call it revisionist, but I consider it the only way to approach the past. Look at the facts, and apply our modern sense of morality. We can excuse people somewhat, but we must still call right right and wrong wrong, and good ideas that and mistakes just that.

Right, wrong and morality are not constants in time. Past, present or future IMHO.

 

[reetpleat]

I believe it was necessary, especially after talking to WW2 veterans who believe that there was no stopping the Japanese except by drastic measures.

And yes, I have argued with a few people who believe it was completely and totally wrong to drop the bomb. Telling them about kamikazes and Japanese militarism had no affect on their argument at all. They still believed the U.S. was a horrible monster for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do I wish we wouldn't have dropped the bomb and we could have ended the war without such devastation? You bet I do.

I took a class in grad school on Japanese history. Talk about eye-opening. If people understood their period of militarism that led to their invasion of China and their quest to colonize, they would better understand, I think, why the Japanese acted the way they did.

Sorry, but better take a class on American and European militarism too. They wre no different than us. And I don't care much what some veterans think. I only want to know the facts. People have always been scared and influenced by manipulation and propoganda. You talk as if these people who disagree with you are ignorant. In fact, they just have a differing opinion.

 

[reetpleat]

Right, wrong and morality are not constants in time. Past, present or future IMHO.

I agree. But I think that our current ideas of how we treat one another are generally agreed to be superior to the past. AS for social morality, that may be subject to opinion. But the idea that killing and enslaving each other is a bad idea has got to be progress. I have no use for the idea that everything is relative.