Looking Back Into History

[K.D. Lightner]

Very good, thought-provoking topic, Twitch.

I find history to be a curious thing, especially when viewed from our present position in history. It is true we do judge the actions of the past by our present values.

And, of course, there is always that old saying "History is written by the victors." What was altered, what was left out, what really happened? How can we ever truly know. It was not until I lived with a Southerner that I got a whole new take on the Civil War.

And then, there are the questions: why, through most of human history, have we required blood sacrifices, human or otherwise, to appease the gods or a god?

Another observation: I think some of us like to think that the human race is evolving, and is more enlightened, although sometimes I am not so sure...

karol

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing that's always bothered me about a presentist approach to history is very simple -- who are *we*, as a generation, to sit in judgement of anyone else? We've talked and talked and talked for the past fifty years about how much better we are than all prior generations, but *are we?* Have we truly, genuinely solved any of the pressing problems of humanity, or have we just learned how to sweep them under the rug, and substitute feel-goody platitudes for actual, genuine moral progress? And if the latter is true, then on what basis do we presume to judge the past?

The way I see it, when there truly is no ignorance, no violence, no hunger, no racism, no sexism, no oppression, and no other fruits of crass human stupidity left in the world, *then* maybe we can tell past generations about how bad they were. Until then, we can only expect to be judged by future generations every bit as harshly as we judge those who came before us.

 

[Ben]

Who are we to judge?

We are the living, and we have to judge what came before so we can decide what to do next.

We need to consider whether what happened was right in addition to how and why it happened, otherwise history offers nothing to us othe rthan technical advice.

 

[Teekay44]

We are the living, and we have to judge what came before so we can decide what to do next.

We need to consider whether what happened was right in addition to how and why it happened, otherwise history offers nothing to us othe rthan technical advice.

Yes we are the ones who judge but we have to judge fairly. How to do that is part of this thread.

 

[Teekay44]

A good spirited debate with plenty of informed opinions and a level of respect and politeness rare on the internet. Gott alove the loundge.

I'll agree with that.

 

[reetpleat]

We are the living, and we have to judge what came before so we can decide what to do next.

We need to consider whether what happened was right in addition to how and why it happened, otherwise history offers nothing to us othe rthan technical advice.

I agree. There is no value to condemn people. I am not out to condemn anyone. But we can understand the forgive people in the past for doing what they did based on bad info, or ignorance that we in hindsight know better than. But if we look back and make judgements about weather it was a good idea or not, it helps us decide the future and avoid the same mistakes.

For example, while slavery was not universally consideded a good idea, it was a norm 150 years ago. And we can forgie peoole for not realizing just how awful it was, but we coon look back and say, taht was a bad idea, let's not do that again.

The only reason to look back at the pat is to somehow inform our modern choices. Yes, future generations will surely find fault with us. So be it. But that does not mean we can not look back and make judgements about weather certain things were good ideas or not, or at least worth repeating or not.

 

[kampkatz]

It is an empirical fact that human nature does NOT evolve. Wars and rumors of war have existed from the moment humans populated the earth. They will continue until the last human is gone.

 

[Twitch]

Kampkatz- Right. Violent nature is hardwired in all hominids and that sure isn't going to change.

Lizzie- You are right as to who should judge. It's one thing to discuss alternate possible outcomes to historical events but quite another to question our ancestors with that "why did they do that? Why didn't they do this?" mentality.

Each generation thinks it is the ultimate of intelligence and suave-ness and that lasts till the next generation who thinks the same thing.

K.D. Your Civil War perspective is typical I think. We learn some general body of knowledge about most subjects but often don't delve into other aspects to balance things out.

I find that since the victors did write much of the history of WW II that it has prejudiced many people to not give German and Japanese, for example, credit for their deeds, innovations, advanced weaponry and such. I find a serious downplaying of Axis innovative thinking and a playing up of Allied talents.

There is a definite prejudice at work in the undercurrent of history. A good example is stating something like the Spitfire was better than the Messerschmitt. In what kind of fight? At what altitude? Etc.

Reetpleat- is right that we do need to look back with today's knowledge to learn but not condemn.

I find a simple comparison to what people today vs. WW II era folks held sacred.

If people, military or civilian were asked to be silent for reasons of national security about some event they witnessed or participated in they would unquestioningly do so till they died.

If that scenario occurred today the silence would never hold because some one figured they should be Lois Lane and tell the world or that there was some way to gain money or fame from the event.

I suppose today some would look back at the WW II folks thinking they were quite simple and rubes. Since they couldn't have been immersed in the society of 70 years ago and understood its values maybe this is normal. I just find it overbearing and wrong to me.

 

[cowboy76]

Twitch-
I hope you and I meet at some point,....I cannot agree with you more about this topic!

Most people cannot relate because the majority of people today are to wrapped up in their modern PC way of thinking that has transpired from years of brainwashing. A trait passed onto the newer generations from "some" of the 1960s crowd that decided to go nuts and do away with almost every building block that America has had set up for itself,.....morals, rights and wrongs, absolutes, integrity and a little thing called "reality". Every generation sublte but sure as the day is long, puts a slight kink in the truth, a chink here and there untill years later the picture is almost entirely molested into a mass of confusing lines and blotches that make little sense. Those who dont care then loose history and feel nothing after it is gone.

In doing so, we have paritially enveloped our educational system in a blanket of ill-informed, hippie history teachers.(and I know this because I was a substitute teacher for 3 years) The last great history teacher where I went to high school died a few years ago, now they just read what they feel like from a book and let the kids go. Any moron can just read from a book with no understanding. The schools are inindated with what started back in the 1960s,....the PC movement. I'm ok, you're ok,..everything is ok,..do what makes you feel good, etc. This outlook has been applied to too much of our lives and has been force fed to society.:eusa_doh: Inevidaby this type of thing leeches out into every part of our lives untill kids who play cops and robbers in the play ground are suspended from school because of our nation's rediculous laws regarding their ideas of "protecting" us from ourselves,....I think Orwell was on to something,.....it may not be 1984, but I'd say by 2084 America wont even exist by the speed in which we're headed down this slippery slope!

History is just an innocent bystander to this car, recklessly out of control, taking out whatever it feels like as it goes down the road. We do our men and women a COMPLETE disservice by what you have stated and I agree has been happening and continues to happen. It is disgusting and heart breaking!

 

[cowboy76]

To suggest taht two powers wanted to take over the world is an incredibly simplistic view of the war. Especially Japan. It was much more complex than that.

And to think that complete invasion of japan was the only possible end is also simplistic. There is no reason a truce could not have been made. If we had let them keep the emporer and certain territories, or not, it may well have been over. Most war before then was solved taht way, not by unconditional surrender and occupation.

Tell this to my 85 barber who served as a Marine in the Pacific Theater that, landed on Tinian, Siapan, Iwo Jima and other areas of the Pacific.

Tell that to the two brothers who own the corner store by my parents who served in WWII in the Pacific also as Marines, that were witnesses to the horrors of the the Pacific theater, the mutilations, the mass killings and tortures.

Tell it to the nurses who had their breasts sliced off by Japanese soldiers in the Pacific,...tell it to the Okinawans that had their babies thrown into the air only to be caught mid-air and skerwered by Japanese bayonets! Tell it to the men who died on Bataan and Corregidor!!!

You cannot reason with madmen who hold power,...that's why they call them "madmen!":eusa_doh:

You need to do some real research outside of your realms and talk to those who served.
Were you there? Nope. You cannot condemn what you did not bear upon your shoulders. Without those acts that transpired in the Pacific campeign countless lives would have been ended,...ANYONE who served there will agree,...I have not found one nor even heard of one that does not agree.

The truth from those who are witnesses cannot be refuted.
You may as well just slap the next WWII vet you see in the face, your words are doing just that.

Can we learn from the past,..absolutely, can we condemn what happened there,..absolutley NOT.

 

[The Wingnut]

I work in a shop that sells military antiques. Our cutoff point is the Korean era. The shop and its contents attract all manner of people and we get some real interesting characters, but the truly tough ones to deal with are the ones that can't understand why the shop exists, the ones that walk in, see swastikas and immediately start asking WHY we would display such evil, evil, evil, evil things for people to see.

One person in particular walked in, took a few loops 'round the shop, completely dumbfounded, mouth hanging open, and then asked why are you selling Nazi stuff? It's difficult to think on the fly in these situations, but I gave the standard 'forget one aspect of history, you might as well toss all of it out' answer. She then made a comment about 'how Hitler duped all of those people into following him', as if they were complete sheep that were easily fooled.

What she missed was that after WWI, Germany was economically, politically and militarily demoralized, disabled, and bankrupt. Hitler's policies and programs actually breathed new life into the nation, bring back Germany's pride in itself, restoring order and prosperity and rebuilding its military strength. Nobody was duped. Looking back, we can say that Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest evils the world has known in the past 100 years, but that's hindsight. At the time, Hitler and the NSDAP were heroes to the German people, and for legitimate reasons.

It's easy to be an armchair diplomat or general after the fact. Someone who truly understands history is able to mentally place themselves into a different point in time and analyze events from that perspective, and then draw conclusions supported later by what we now know.

 

[cowboy76]

I work in a shop that sells military antiques. Our cutoff point is the Korean era. The shop and its contents attract all manner of people and we get some real interesting characters, but the truly tough ones to deal with are the ones that can't understand why the shop exists, the ones that walk in, see swastikas and immediately start asking WHY we would display such evil, evil, evil, evil things for people to see.

One person in particular walked in, took a few loops 'round the shop, completely dumbfounded, mouth hanging open, and then asked why are you selling Nazi stuff? It's difficult to think on the fly in these situations, but I gave the standard 'forget one aspect of history, you might as well toss all of it out' answer. She then made a comment about 'how Hitler duped all of those people into following him', as if they were complete sheep that were easily fooled.

What she missed was that after WWI, Germany was economically, politically and militarily demoralized, disabled, and bankrupt. Hitler's policies and programs actually breathed new life into the nation, bring back Germany's pride in itself, restoring order and prosperity and rebuilding its military strength. Nobody was duped. Looking back, we can say that Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest evils the world has known in the past 100 years, but that's hindsight. At the time, Hitler and the NSDAP were heroes to the German people, and for legitimate reasons.

It's easy to be an armchair diplomat or general after the fact. Someone who truly understands history is able to mentally place themselves into a different point in time and analyze events from that perspective, and then draw conclusions supported later by what we now know.

Dont look now,...Sesame Street is now under attack,....
Just another example to the never ending madness....:eusa_doh:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18wwln-medium-t.html

I think some of the same poeple who were walking around your shop Wignut are in on this!,... LOL
HA!

 

[A.R. McVintage]

You need to do some real research outside of your realms and talk to those who served.

I doubt that's going to happen, cowboy76:

Sorry, but better take a class on American and European militarism too. They wre no different than us. And I don't care much what some veterans think.

It's at cross purposes.

 

[cowboy76]

I doubt that's going to happen, cowboy76:



It's at cross purposes.

Wow!,...yeah I didnt see that post,....nice attitude,....well, then maybe he should move to another country since he could care less about the men and women who fought so he can act like that!

Spinelsss and senseless,....I actually feel bad for him.

I wonder what it would look like if he said that to a vet,....I'm sure gravity would take over pretty fast after he took flight.

 

[AmateisGal]

Dont look now,...Sesame Street is now under attack,....
Just another example to the never ending madness....:eusa_doh:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18wwln-medium-t.html

I think some of the same poeple who were walking around your shop Wignut are in on this!,... LOL
HA!

Ok, this whole thing about Sesame Street is ridiculous. A disclaimer "for adults only"? Wow. I loved Sesame Street when I was a kid.

 

[cowboy76]

Ok, this whole thing about Sesame Street is ridiculous. A disclaimer "for adults only"? Wow. I loved Sesame Street when I was a kid.

yeah pretty wacky,...the rest of the world has gone insane,...but we here in my household are doin well!...circa 1940!

 

[reetpleat]

Tell this to my 85 barber who served as a Marine in the Pacific Theater that, landed on Tinian, Siapan, Iwo Jima and other areas of the Pacific.

Tell that to the two brothers who own the corner store by my parents who served in WWII in the Pacific also as Marines, that were witnesses to the horrors of the the Pacific theater, the mutilations, the mass killings and tortures.

Tell it to the nurses who had their breasts sliced off by Japanese soldiers in the Pacific,...tell it to the Okinawans that had their babies thrown into the air only to be caught mid-air and skerwered by Japanese bayonets! Tell it to the men who died on Bataan and Corregidor!!!

You cannot reason with madmen who hold power,...that's why they call them "madmen!":eusa_doh:

You need to do some real research outside of your realms and talk to those who served.
Were you there? Nope. You cannot condemn what you did not bear upon your shoulders. Without those acts that transpired in the Pacific campeign countless lives would have been ended,...ANYONE who served there will agree,...I have not found one nor even heard of one that does not agree.

The truth from those who are witnesses cannot be refuted.
You may as well just slap the next WWII vet you see in the face, your words are doing just that.

Can we learn from the past,..absolutely, can we condemn what happened there,..absolutley NOT.

While it is obvious that the japanese committed atrocities in asia, I doubt very much that your barber and the corner store owner witnessed japanese impaling babies on their bayonets. That is an old myth that dates back to WW I involving the Germans in Belgium. The modern day equivilant is the story of Iraqui soldiers throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwait. Later shown to be a creation of a US PR firm and the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador.

And while I also have no doubt that some vets might indeed inflict violence upon my person for daring to have a differing opinion than them, I do not see that as sufficient reason to change my mind. For that matter, I do not for a moment feel that any vet in the last 150 years has gone to war to protect my right of free speech. At no time in our history of the last 150 years or more, has the us been under any threat of invasion which might result in any infrinement of said right.

At any rate, I will thank you to limit your comments to the ideas discussed and refrain from snide commments that consitute personal insults. I will do the same.

 

[reetpleat]

I work in a shop that sells military antiques. Our cutoff point is the Korean era. The shop and its contents attract all manner of people and we get some real interesting characters, but the truly tough ones to deal with are the ones that can't understand why the shop exists, the ones that walk in, see swastikas and immediately start asking WHY we would display such evil, evil, evil, evil things for people to see.

One person in particular walked in, took a few loops 'round the shop, completely dumbfounded, mouth hanging open, and then asked why are you selling Nazi stuff? It's difficult to think on the fly in these situations, but I gave the standard 'forget one aspect of history, you might as well toss all of it out' answer. She then made a comment about 'how Hitler duped all of those people into following him', as if they were complete sheep that were easily fooled.

What she missed was that after WWI, Germany was economically, politically and militarily demoralized, disabled, and bankrupt. Hitler's policies and programs actually breathed new life into the nation, bring back Germany's pride in itself, restoring order and prosperity and rebuilding its military strength. Nobody was duped. Looking back, we can say that Adolf Hitler was one of the greatest evils the world has known in the past 100 years, but that's hindsight. At the time, Hitler and the NSDAP were heroes to the German people, and for legitimate reasons.

It's easy to be an armchair diplomat or general after the fact. Someone who truly understands history is able to mentally place themselves into a different point in time and analyze events from that perspective, and then draw conclusions supported later by what we now know.

I agree with you actually. It is important to look at how and why people felt the way they did. But we also must look at the facts that time reveals.

In a way, I would say that Germans were duped, in that, they were duped into thinking that hitler's ideas were good ones and would be successful. But you are right, they knew what was going on and made a choice to go along with it for their own goals.

 

[J.S.Udontknowme]

For that matter, I do not for a moment feel that any vet in the last 150 years has gone to war to protect my right of free speech. At no time in our history of the last 150 years or more, has the us been under any threat of invasion which might result in any infrinement of said right.

This is something that I would expect you to say, after reading your posts in this and other threads. The way that you "feel" doesn't change the facts. I'm not going to argue this point with you because it's clear that you have been indoctrinated instead of educated on this subject.

 

[Fletch]

I do not for a moment feel that any vet in the last 150 years has gone to war to protect my right of free speech. At no time in our history of the last 150 years or more, has the us been under any threat of invasion which might result in any infrinement of said right.

Just don't tell yourself that those vets would see any contradiction between putting themselves on the line for your right to speak your mind and laying you out cold for exercising said right to their faces.

At the very least, I would venture, it lacks tact. For my part, I don't discuss metaphysics with the devout, and I don't talk poli.sci. with old soldiers.