Limits of blocking

[Fletch]

(Fletch Not-31 here)

The Authority will be found wherever knowledge - of anything really - is cherished and sought. He is motivated partly by concern for his livelihood, partly by sheer ego, and partly by the traditional feeling that knowledge is more valued and precious when it is earned thru dedication, rather than just given to the curious.

The Authority is badly undermined by the digital age and the flattening out of the information hierarchy. Not only does he have to have his ducks in a neater row than ever, but the traditional attitude of undeclared covert war on the competition can backfire badly on him.

Authorities can survive if they are helpful and reasonably open to non-Authorities, and if they don't try to be THE Authority, but recognize others' knowledge matters too.

It's no easy trick reconciling the age-old craft ethic with the info age and making it work for you. People like Art prove it can be done.

 

[tonyb]

I hope you don't mean me Tonyb. For the record, I am no authority on this stuff, I'm just sharing my experiences which I have tried to qualify as limited. I am a hobbyist who is working toward making a hat from scratch. I have only reblocked hats up until now and then according to info I have found on this great forum and others along with visits and private emails to other hatters. I regurgitate what I have learned from others along with my own ideas. They shouldnt be taken for anything more than that. I dont know anyone here who paints themselves as a divine authority on these matters. Even those (not me) that could lay claim to that title are quite humble in their guidance. I think you are off the mark here.

I was making no allusions to you at all, f31. None whatsoever. But if I've somehow inadvertently left you with that impression, well, please allow me to once again state unequivocally that such was not my aim. Why you would think it was has me scratching my head.
Like you, I know of no one here who claims such "final authority" status. There are, sadly, others in this small world of hat people who do.

 

[fletch31]

My bad brother. There were only a few people posting in this thread and so I thought you were directing your comments at only those in it. Being one of them, I considered myself a candidate for your comments. Anytime I pop up with the wrong idea regarding hat stuff on here I will always be grateful if someone corrects me. Tone is difficult to read on forums sometimes and I thought you might have got the wrong idea regarding me. It looks like it was I who got the wrong idea about you.

 

[tonyb]

Cool, fletch31. I'm glad to have that cleared up. And I'm glad that I'm among a group of people (you included) who are giving this hat making and renovation stuff a try. I'm sure that we can all learn from one another, and I hope that we can find in one another sources of materials and tools and whatnot.

 

[ideaguy]

I think maybe the term "puller-down" in the Scientific Journal puts things in
perspective...

 

[J.T.Marcus]

This thread had me curious about the limits of stretching. I had gone from a 6 7/8 to 7 1/8 before, but this week I decided to start with a 6 3/4. It actually worked. Thanks , Guys, for raising and addressing the question. Art, a special thank-you for sharing your hard won knowledge with us. :eusa_clap

 

[Woodfluter]

Answer to flare-top crown...

I don't know how they made that particular Eastwood hat but I know there are 3 and 5 piece blocks that dissemble a piece at a time to remove the freshly dried and blocked body. I have seen them in women's hat molds primarily because they tend to have more creative flares and curves that don't allow one to remove the felt by using a slip stick. I would think that you could do the same for top hats and that flared top Pale Rider hat.

Thank you much, Fletch! Sorry for the belated appreciation. Your explanation makes sense and is the only way I can imagine doing that. The folks at Clearwater sell similar hats of mid-19th C. design, including top hats, and the price differential suggests that extra work or specialized gear is involved. http://www.clearwaterhats.com/civilwar5.htm

Thanks again!
- Bill

 

[fletch31]

You bet Bill. Major Moore was also correct in saying the middle piece is removed first as well on those puzzle blocks. That High Rider looks like a dang sharp lid on that link you posted and the price looks nice for a period hat. It comes in black and looks like it could be a good fit for your pale rider hat. I would be interested in this style for SASS too. I'm working on a conversion for an eastwood dollars/good bad ugly trilogy hat. I may have to send it off to get a bound edge though. Did the Pale Rider hat have a bound edge as well? I wonder what blend of felt they use at Clearwater?

 

[Woodfluter]

You bet Bill. Major Moore was also correct in saying the middle piece is removed first as well on those puzzle blocks. That High Rider looks like a dang sharp lid on that link you posted and the price looks nice for a period hat. It comes in black and looks like it could be a good fit for your pale rider hat. I would be interested in this style for SASS too. I'm working on a conversion for an eastwood dollars/good bad ugly trilogy hat. I may have to send it off to get a bound edge though. Did the Pale Rider hat have a bound edge as well? I wonder what blend of felt they use at Clearwater?

Yep, learned a bit more about "puzzle blocks" from web research.

Clearwater seems like a genuine, family-owned and honest enterprise. I like their guarantee - anytime within one year, if dissatisfied return for replacement or refund. Also their current insistence on sending a template, not just a size, which betokens someone who cares about fit to an uncommon degree. Testimonials can be cherry-picked (I'm a born skeptic) but some seem to have worn their hats in pretty hard weather without harm. Not sure about the blend or quality of their fur felt.. they mention rabbit and beaver and nutria but don't get specific. Anyway, I am tempted by the High Rider. I have a video of the Clint Eastwood flick recently received, but haven't had time to view it re binding. My recollection is no binding. They would probably do that. Seems like a semi-custom business.

They aren't e-mail oriented it seems. I'll give them a call sometime soon and let you all know what I find out. Always liked that pattern of hat...a bit of mad-hatter top hat influence, shorter crown but taller than John Bull style and wider, useful brim. Like it because it's historical, and also distinctive.

- Bill

 

[Woodfluter]

Spoke to Kay at Clearwater today. Re our questions:

1. Colorfastness and running of black (this was an issue for me): They've been in business for 19 years, and they had one bad dye batch (black of course) a long time ago, and never since. They made that right with returns. No problems since.

2. Edge binding: Whatever you want, binding or not, same cost, just tell them. She thought the binding looked especially sharp with this style, and I agree.

3. Not something they emphasized, but they really do want the head template to make sure they get the proportions of the head correct.

I'm going to order one High Rider in black with binding. Hope this helps!

- Bill

 

[Joshbru3]

I wanted to BUMP this thread because there has been some talk recently about re-blocking hats and gaining a certain crown shape.

I wanted to add a couple of tidbits that I have learned through my own trial and errors.

First things first...Are you going to re-block the hat with the sweatband IN or OUT.

1) If you are trying to re-shape a hat to open crown and do not wish to "change" the block profile, then I usually recommend just steaming the hat and pushing the felt out slowly until the original open crown position is achieved.

2) If you wish to really re-block the hat to achieve a different block profile (less taper/straight sided, more taper, etc) then the "RIGHT" block must be chosen for the job.

-What I mean about the "Right" block is, what type of crease do you intend to use and how tall do you want the crown to be. (Not all block profiles work with all creases, trust me, they just don't)

-If blocking the hat with the sweatband in, chose a slightly smaller block than your size. (I'm a size 7, and unless I want to stretch the sweatband for more room, I will use a 6 7/8 block. This also will put less stress on the sweatband. Its VERY easy to split and crack a vintage sweatband if too big of a block is used. Also, measure the circumference of your block and your hat. I have size 7 blocks which are the same circumference as some of my 6 7/8 blocks, so NOT ALL BLOCKS ARE CREATED equal. Sometimes I will use a size 7 block to re-block my size 7 hats, but only after I have checked measurements. (As a side note, REMOVE the little bow on the sweatband before re-blocking the hat with the sweatband still in. If you don't, there will be a bump in the back of the hat, which can look odd.)

3) If you wish to re-block the hat with the sweatband out (which I would recommend if you want to still keep and use your original sweatband) then a size 7 hat will take a size 7 block usually. If you desire a bit more room, then you can use a 7 1/8 for example, but again, MEASURE THE CIRCUMFERENCE of the block to ensure that your not overstretching the felt. You don't want to put the sweatband back and realize that the circumference of the new hole is a great deal bigger than the sweatband you are putting back in.

NOW, lets talk block shape.....

Most of us like 5 1/2 inch crowns and above, regardless if we like 40's/50's style hats or 20's/30's style hats.

Here's some examples of block shapes that have been used on some of my vintage hats.

1)Here's a straight sided, ROUND topped block used on a 1950's Champ

This type of block shape I have found is only meant for one type of crease....a c-crown/teardrop. I tried a center dent on this hat and it just never looked right because of how round the top of the crown was. The hat didn't have TAPER, it was a fairly straight block, but like I said, the top was very rounded. Now, also due to the roundness, the c-crown that was achieved was not as sharp and straight as a c-crown that was done on a flatter topped block.

Here's the center dent that was used, as you can see, it doesn't look very good, because the block profile doesn't really lend itself to a center dent...

and the c-crown....

As you can see, the c-crown had to be done in such a way that gave the hat the most height and straightness, again due to the roundness of the top of the block.

2) Here's a tall, STRAIGHT SIDED, FLAT TOPPED BLOCK profile (most likely a 52 profile, or similar to 52) used on a 1920's Lion Brand hat

This is my favorite block and will yield the most possibilities. This block is great for centerdents, c-crowns, arrowheads, teardrops, etc. The reason this block shape is so versatile is because of how flat the top of the block is. It has some height to allow for deep creases, sharp pinches, and sharp lines. I used a centerdent on this hat, and you can see how it differs from the Champ up above...

A no taper, flat topped block will allow for no taper creases. If you want a little taper on top, take the centerdent and make it deeper. The amount of felt material used for a deep centerdent will force the sides to bow inwards slightly and create upper taper...if desired.

3) Here's a block profile that I like to call MEDIUM-ROUND (Most likely a 51 block or similar). This block profile was used on a ton of 40's/50's hats. It has tall straight sides, like the blocking styles from the 20/30's, but this type is slightly more round than what I would call a 52 block. Its not as round as the champ up above, but just round enough to yield itself to perfect c-crowns and teardrops.

I used a center dent on this one, and while not as straight as the Lion Brand from the 20's, its still pretty taper free. There is a bit of side taper, but litter taper front and back.

This same block was used on other vintage hats and the c-crowns/teardrops come out nice as well.

Why am I showing you these pictures.....well here's the most important point I'm trying to make....different block profiles will yield different looking creases. OBVIOUSLY there are a million ways to crease a hat and depending on how the individual creases a particular hat, they can add taper unintentionally to a un-tapered hat. I'm just saying that certain creases look better when executed on certain block profiles.

Here's another big issue when it comes to blocking or re-blocking a hat.....

Can a hat that has a very round topped crown and lots of taper be re-blocked into a hat that has not taper at all......the basic answer is YES, BUT there's certain conditions.

Here's an example that I use from my own experience...

I once had a hat that had a very round and tapered crown which measured 5 1/2 in height. I used a VERY straight 52 block to re-block the hat with the sweatband in. What I ended up with was a hat that now had a very straight topped crown, but now only measured 5 inches in height. Why did that happen?? Simple, because straight/flat topped blocks have very broad shoulders and need that material to come from somewhere. The straight block used the height of the felt and added broad shoulders which in turn shortened the crown.

Here's a diagram which may help illustrate my example. Its from the Scientific hat finishing and renovating book:

While this diagram is talking about adding brim length, it shows a round topped block inside a flat topped blocked hat. It shows the reverse of my example, but imagine you put a straight topped block inside a round topped blocked hat, the shoulders of the flat topped block would have to use the crown height to fill the shoulder area.

Here's the exception, if you are willing to disassemble a hat entirely and re-block the felt body, you will be able to save the hats crown height with the flatter topped block (or possibly even raise the height), BUT you will loose some brim width. That's the thing about blocking, just because you want a desired crown height and shape, doesn't mean that only that dimension will change. Often many dimensions on a hat have to change when re-blocking to a different profile.

This brings me back to my original statement of using the right block for the right crease, height, etc.

If you buy a modern Stetson, for example, use a hat shaper to bring it to open crown, you might find that the hat is now shorter than before, but straighter/less tapered. Without re-doing the hat entirely, your only option to gain crown height would be to use a block with MORE taper in order to raise the crown height. I don;t really like this option, but it is an option. Just like straighter blocks will often decrease crown height from a taper hat, using a more tapered block on a taper hat, will often maintain or raise the crown height.

I hope all of this makes sense, and I didn't confuse anyone. It sounds a lot more difficult than it really is, but you have to take measurements, consider your block options, and chose a block profile shape that will best suit your likes and style. If anyone has any questions about anything that I wrote, please ask, so I can explain further.

 

[zetwal]

Nicely done, Joshbru3 ... :yo:

 

[Chepstow]

Thanks Josh, for that outstanding documentation. Easy to understand and very informative.

 

[randooch]

Thanks Josh, for that outstanding documentation. Easy to understand and very informative.

+1! Excellent stuff.

 

[Jedwbpm]

Great info Josh thank you for sharing

Jeff

 

[hatophile]

Josh very nice info, you're becoming quite the expert on this stuff.
I must say I have found the same experience with just general creasing of my hats. Because of the basic shape, certain hats are able to look much better with a center dent than others. For that reason, while I like the center dent crease, most of my hats are diamond or C-creased.

 

[John in Covina]

Super information!

 

[Joshbru3]

Nicely done, Joshbru3 ... :yo:

Thanks Josh, for that outstanding documentation. Easy to understand and very informative.

+1! Excellent stuff.

Great info Josh thank you for sharing

Jeff

Josh very nice info, you're becoming quite the expert on this stuff.
I must say I have found the same experience with just general creasing of my hats. Because of the basic shape, certain hats are able to look much better with a center dent than others. For that reason, while I like the center dent crease, most of my hats are diamond or C-creased.

Super information!

THANKS so much everybody!! I was happy to post this. I really hope someone can use this info and hopefully help make better decisions on what type of block to use. To block or not to block, that is the question.......

Perry, I find that most hats from the late 30's - the mid 50's look the best with a c-crown/diamond/teardrop. What those creases wind up doing to the crown is "squaring" everything up. Since that was the most popular style/crease at that time, its my feeling that the hat factories choices in block profiles were totally in response to the trends at that time. They chose a block that looked best when a c-crown/teardrop/diamond was used. The 20's/30's hats look the best with centerdents because that was the most popular style at that time and again its my feeling the hat factories blocked their hats with that in mind. My personal opinion is that a center dent looks the best with a deep crease. Usually I would say a minimum of a 5 3/4 inch straight crown would be the best for that great 20's/30's looking centerdent, possibly even a 6 inch open crown. I must add though, its been proven time and time again that there were many hats from the turn of the 1900's through the early 30's which actually had low crowns and therefore yielded short creased crowns. Even though not every 20's/30's hat had a tall crown, I think the ones that do, look the best.

 

[rlk]

Excellent explanation, Thanks Josh. I would just add that the squarer shoulder will give the impression of greater crown height than a more rounded crown of equal peak total height.

 

[Joshbru3]

Excellent explanation, Thanks Josh. I would just add that the squarer shoulder will give the impression of greater crown height than a more rounded crown of equal peak total height.

Thanks so much for the addition, Robert! You are completely right. A squarer shoulder will most definitely give the impression of a greater crown height. I also find that a crown looks so much more substantial in bulk/girth when a square shoulder/straight block is used verses a rounded crown block.